A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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LoZfan03

Junior Member

08-25-2013

If there's no indication when he ults in the first place, how does this solve the getting stealth-murdered with no warning problem? I thought that was one of the key issues to deal with.


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MandyMemory

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Senior Member

08-25-2013

Would it always consume ferocity or only if you have 5? Those would warrant very different bonuses.


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Jyrachi

Recruiter

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Girofalcon View Post
These are horrible ideas. Rengar is just fine. With a 48% win rate and 6% popularity ranking overall, there is no reason to destroy the champion. This is not helping him. All this will do is piss off all rengar mains. These design policies will run this game INTO THE GROUND. Mark my words.
I agree. What Riot has done to Olaf recently and what they are doing to alot of champions really feels like what happened to Vayne and Karma way back. They were simply fixed and pushed around until they simply made them near unplayable. Then they removed the only skillful and well rounded side of master Yi because they wanted to make him balanced... There really was no better balance than AP Yi. He was well rounded as it was and there was alot of good and fun counterplay to him. Unlike AD Yi which was basically just an unpeelable rightclick to win way of playing him. I feel like the reworks for Sejuani, Trundle and Karma were very good because they brought rewarding gameplay to these champions and made them good enough to the point where mastering them would make them very strong picks. Recent reworks feel like they are intended to remove any rewarding gameplay from already fun and enjoyable champions and overall just make them boring and "fair"... There is nothing fair about this game. Its all about making intelligent decisions and being prepared to deal with what other champions bring to the table. If there is already good counterplay for that champion and there is no visible problems. DONT REWORK THEM. Rengar is fine as is and the ult Indicator is just a stupid way of making him less enjoyable, because the fun of Rengar was not being able to know if he was there or not and capitalizing on him showing his face (similar to Shaco). Why is it a good idea to make Rengar carry this new weight even though he was already lacking in win%, whereas Shaco roams free using the exact same principles and having a much better win%. Olaf was an understandable fix but it just WASNT the RIGHT ONE. Olaf had a raging win% back before the "fix", and now he has one of the lowest win% in the game. Olaf was already taking a hard hit when he got the decaying slow, and after that Riot added salt to the wound by removing his armor pen passive... WHY. Just WHY. He would have been just fine with the one nerf and Riot feels it necessary to make him unplayable. Not only did his nerfs make him a ridiculously hard champion to play, they thought to add even more pain to Olafs nerf... In Season 3. Season 3 was the harbinger of Armor and Magic resist. In the previous Season 2 Health was everything, which is why Olaf was striving so much at the time. Because his kit was MEANT FOR HEALTH. Now in Season 3 hp isnt worth much and this only made Olafs situation worse. So why. OH WHY. Is the Olaf "Fix" keeping the old nerfs and IN FACT, adding even more. Its as if riot has specifically decided to beat on AD top laners in Season 3... Rengar, Olaf, and more, consistently suffering in the new season. I just feel like riot is closing so many doors by doing this and as an avid player myself, I find my champion pool slowly closing more and more as each new patch comes out, because all these champions are becoming harder and harder to justify playing as with their new nerfs/ counterplay that was added into the recent patches.


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Nilous7

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
I've seen this a bunch in this thread so far, but i don't see it as having the same problems due to

- Stalk having less Stealth Duration than on Live
- Stalk losing Thrill of the Hunt's movement speed
- Rengar's overall burst being lowered

In general, there's a much lower window for Rengar to Sneak-Attack you. He can also just run and leap on you if his goal is to just get to you, but if taking your opponent by surprise is important (say, in a lane-gank) that option is still available and potent. Overall it takes a lot more planning and execution to pull off the stealth-attack, but you can forgo the planning and just bumrush them (at the cost of alerting them to your presence earlier)

For Rengar's ult, please just make it so that you accidentally don't waste the ult. Right now, trying to go into the stealth while in a fight, it's unpredictable, and so a lot of the time, I accidentally will use my roar or something AS I'm going invisible, causing the whole thing to be wasted. Why? Cause the fade timer is anywhere between 0 to 3.5 seconds. Just make it so the stealth doesn't have the chance of being wasted like that.

Also, would it be possible that instead of a "seconds" delay before being able to become stealthed, there was some other requirement, like you can't become stealthed while someone is watching you? So you'd have to duck into a bush then stealth? It'd give him the escape, but without it being a 100% get away, and then it'd give really fun juking possibilities.


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Samflash3

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
I've seen this a bunch in this thread so far, but i don't see it as having the same problems due to

- Stalk having less Stealth Duration than on Live
- Stalk losing Thrill of the Hunt's movement speed
- Rengar's overall burst being lowered

In general, there's a much lower window for Rengar to Sneak-Attack you. He can also just run and leap on you if his goal is to just get to you, but if taking your opponent by surprise is important (say, in a lane-gank) that option is still available and potent. Overall it takes a lot more planning and execution to pull off the stealth-attack, but you can forgo the planning and just bumrush them (at the cost of alerting them to your presence earlier)
Will you favour a shorter leap range in stealth (compared to live) for a longer duration of stealth?


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drakon136

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Bonus Question!- Consuming Ferocity on cast is still something i want to do, but i'd want to find a better bonus you get for 'Empowering' your Ultimate rather than duration. Suggestions? I anticipate a lot of '+Damage and +Stealth' time, but i'm open to hearing what you guys have to say.!
Hmm. Got an idea for this. If you empower your ultimate, perhaps your Leap could fear the target? I mean, who wouldn't be afraid if Rengar charged towards them at incredible speeds and jumped at them?

A few other ideas I think of when you empower your ultimate:

-True Sight while active
-Keep movement speed when entering Stalk
-Bonus range on Leap
-Your next attack shreds armor
-Next Empowered ability does not consume Ferocity


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THUNDERMINE

Member

08-25-2013

When fully empowered during ult/stealth Rengar gains the option to throw 2 bola's back to back with no cooldown

When fully empowered during ult/stealth and his W is used, give it a heal over time effect equal to a standard health pot as well as +5% attack damage and 5% life steal for the same duration (heals and gains attack damage/life steal for 5 seconds/ 10 seconds.......


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calumniateTruth

Junior Member

08-25-2013

I think the Ult change is cool, I still have all of my concerns about the changes to his damage though. Slower damage and no tankiness will really hurt his assassination. Also, I think his Q train is too fragile a mechanic. It is entirely susceptible to CC especially knock backs that will force him to interrupt his combo to reengage. The comparison was made to Ryse, however, Rengar has to pull of his combo in Melee range making him a huge target for CC and focus and with no tenacity, tankiness or consistent move speed I cannot see the new ult being of any use as he will be unable to do anything when arriving at the location unless he is going for an adc with no huge burst or CC or good consistent escape power i.e. Tumble that is alone far enough away from their team that you can use your combo and escape in time.


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Troy242621

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
I've seen this a bunch in this thread so far, but i don't see it as having the same problems due to

- Stalk having less Stealth Duration than on Live
- Stalk losing Thrill of the Hunt's movement speed
- Rengar's overall burst being lowered

In general, there's a much lower window for Rengar to Sneak-Attack you. He can also just run and leap on you if his goal is to just get to you, but if taking your opponent by surprise is important (say, in a lane-gank) that option is still available and potent. Overall it takes a lot more planning and execution to pull off the stealth-attack, but you can forgo the planning and just bumrush them (at the cost of alerting them to your presence earlier)
That's what has me worried,...His burst wasn't too high. If you want to weaken his stealth by adding this new ultimate feature, fine, but don't turn him into a bruiser. His kit is based around assassinating, and if you take the burst away, he can't due that anymore due to focus/CC. Also, does E REALLY NEED to be a skillshot? I mean, I don't particularly mind, but I don't think ANYONE ever complained his Ebola lacked counterplay,...Just seems weird how you're approaching this rework. I can't say I'm not worried.

He will be like that one cat that you buy for little kids when their actual cat dies and you name it the same as the old cat in hopes that they'll believe it and make them feel better. But we know. We know it's not the old cat.

(On that note, if Rengar changes go live a while from now and he ISN'T an assassin still, I'm forever calling him Fluffy instead of Rengar.)


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Okamiden

Junior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilous7 View Post
like you can't become stealthed while someone is watching you? So you'd have to duck into a bush then stealth? It'd give him the escape, but without it being a 100% get away, and then it'd give really fun juking possibilities.
I love this idea. It'd give him a unique stealth not seen on other champs, the bush synergy we've been waiting for, and make it harder for him to escape ganks top. Basically adding bushes to his ult stealth would remove the 'press R and escape' mechanic, replacing it for more tactful plays. I guess It'd also remove Rengar's ability to jump on the adc in the middle of a teamfight and assassinate. I'm fairly sure Scarizard was calling that toxic earlier.