A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Shadow of Inari

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Pesonally I like the increased duration for R ferocity bonus, but since we're tossing around ideas, what about additional resource generation, similar to the bonus for 14 stacks on BTN on live?

Consumes ferocity on cast, rengars next ability will generate additional ferocity equal X% of the amount consumed. This feels like it fits with the 'preparing to ambush' feeling of Thrill of the Hunt.


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lMisteryl

Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Hey dudes, sorry for going mostly silent this week - had a lot to get done and i don't like to post when i know i won't have time to follow up with y'all (this is why last week's post came on a Friday evening so i had all weekend to keep talking)

So i'm likely going to format this horrendously because i'm at home and don't have a screencap of the tooltip, but here's the new idea for Rengar's ultimate:

Thrill of the Hunt

Hunt: Rengar activates his Predatory instincts, gaining % movement speed and vision of all nearby enemy champions. During this time, Rengar also generates up to 5 Ferocity and his first basic attack will cause him to leap. Lasts (Long Duration) or until Rengar uses an ability/leaps.

After a few seconds, Rengar may choose to reactivate Thrill of the Hunt to enter Stalk.

Stalk: Rengar loses all bonus movement speed from Thrill of the Hunt, but enters Stealth. Lasts (Shorter Duration) or until Rengar takes offensive action.

If i can clarify more, let me know. The basics are that Rengar players get to choose which is best for the situation - to Speedcat for a chase or cleanup? or Stealthcat for an ambush or otherwise awesome juke? I'm excited about this version because it has a lot of flexibility in what Rengar can do throughout the game (by retaining Higher % MS than is on live via Hunt, but retaining the Stealth Ambush in Stalk) but doesn't let you just hit R and run without being smart about it.

Bonus Question!- Consuming Ferocity on cast is still something i want to do, but i'd want to find a better bonus you get for 'Empowering' your Ultimate rather than duration. Suggestions? I anticipate a lot of '+Damage and +Stealth' time, but i'm open to hearing what you guys have to say.

Let me know what you guys think, and sorry for the delay!


what about ferocity comsumption gives vision reduction for enemies on steath mode? Because when you are searching for something invisible you stop focusing on the things that is happening around you.

or a better idea, what if the ferocity comsumption was a option that if activated on speedcat rengar uses all he have to a increased leaprange and a stun (like on quinn's jump) and on steathcat gives vision reduction to the scared enemies or maybe damage reduction ? after he uses the ferocity on the ultimate, the ferocity generation would stop but of course, he would have the option to not use the ferocity comsumption and uses his empowered abilities. (Now rengar is full of opitions)

it's just a idea


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Tortferngatr

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerensky287 View Post
Regarding the Ferocity bonuses on ult, I have a couple of ideas (not intended to be applied all at the same time):

-Ulting with full Ferocity reduces its cooldown, or perhaps starts the cooldown on activation rather than once it ends.
-The true-sight radius only occurs with 5 Ferocity, or only has a huge range with 5 Ferocity. Some of the power-budget can be balanced out into Rengar's other abilities, or movespeed/stealth duration.
-Ulting with full Ferocity applies a mark to the first champion you hit, granting you bonus gold/a temporary buff/bonus BTN stacks if you kill the marked target within a certain duration.

My reasoning for why these might be good ideas:

-If you ult with less than 5 Ferocity, it's probably because it was a spur-of-the-moment cast. You saw a low-health target, or you just needed to be on the other side of the map now rather than later. Ulting without max ferocity should never feel like a punishment or a compromise; the speed, sight, and stealth are what you're using it for.

-If you ult with 5 Ferocity, you've probably planned the ult well in advance (since you built up stacks to do it). You should be rewarded with something that will help you plan your approach, or give you good returns on the time and thought-bandwidth you spent preparing for the ult.

-The 5-stack ult thus SHOULD NOT have short-term benefits (so you don't feel like you're missing out if you ult for short-term gain), but it SHOULD benefit the player who has no other pressing needs.

-In general, I feel that the Ferocity bonus should be binary - either you have full stacks, or you don't. It makes sense with the way all of his other abilities get an "empowered" bonus, for one; but more importantly, full-stacks means you've prepared or you're lucky, and less-than-full stacks means you didn't prepare at all. A spur-of-the-moment cast shouldn't necessarily be rewarded because the player lucked out and had 4 stacks instead of 1, I think. It needs to be all-or-nothing.

Specific reasons why I suggested what I suggested:

-Reduced cooldowns are a simple thing that rewards you greatly for spending the short time it takes to max your ferocity. If you're using your ult on something urgent, you aren't going to sit back and use QWE one more time to get the reduced cooldown; if you're planning to hunt, though, you'll probably make the extra effort. It's like Diana's ult - most of the time you'll want to Q first if you can, but once in a while you need that extra dash right the hell now.

-True-sight is something that I feel isn't really necessary on a spur-of-the-moment ult. If you're ulting immediately, it's because you've spotted a target. You don't need the constant vision of them. Conversely, a planned ult with full stacks lets you search a little for potential targets, or pick the easier engagement if one enemy champion is more isolated than the other.

-The mark-bonus is just sort of a flavor-thing. If you're ulting with max stacks, it means you're planning the hunt, which means Rengar's got a particular prize he wants to take. It also makes the narrative- and gameplay-goals align further, by having the player plan out a hunt, wait for the perfect time to strike, and then rush out and take down the target for the greatest reward. An I-need-an-ult-now ult will be more opportunistic; a planned ult might deliberately wait for the target to be weakened so they have a better chance of detonating the mark.

But there are probably other, better ideas out there. These are just my thoughts on the matter.
While I think, the notion of having a Ferocity-enhanced, planned ult do something more for Rengar strategically is one that pleases me.

The "gets an increased vision radius" idea seems pretty promising to me.


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ZeroAgainst

Senior Member

08-25-2013

will there be a fix for the hunt is on bug for rengar? before or after this rework?


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Sacredlord

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Rengars squishy leave his def up roar..


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PallasAthens

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
I've seen this a bunch in this thread so far, but i don't see it as having the same problems due to

- Stalk having less Stealth Duration than on Live
- Stalk losing Thrill of the Hunt's movement speed
- Rengar's overall burst being lowered

In general, there's a much lower window for Rengar to Sneak-Attack you. He can also just run and leap on you if his goal is to just get to you, but if taking your opponent by surprise is important (say, in a lane-gank) that option is still available and potent. Overall it takes a lot more planning and execution to pull off the stealth-attack, but you can forgo the planning and just bumrush them (at the cost of alerting them to your presence earlier)
Yes, but this is a nerf overall to him. It isn't a buff, it is in no way a buff by any means. Great job, you made him Master Yi with a little bit of invisibility tacked on...which makes him an invisible, slow Master Yi.

At this point it's not balance. It's saying, "Well we're going to buff this and butcher that..or butcher that completely while giving him pointless buffs that don't bring any unique interaction or unique mechanic to the character, relegating them to being carbon copies of other characters."

I wish I could explain to you why and how you should buff them, but it boils down to stop being afraid to give him a strength. He can already be destroyed in lane, and let's not pretend that he'll ever catch someone off guard with his new ult. Considering how much and how cheap wards off, they'll ALWAYS see him, and if a Rengar is trying to tower dive someone who knows he's coming, he's going to die. And considering the ADC always is accompanied or is near a teammate, Rengar can't really snipe anybody but the tanky jungler or the tanky top.

This is in regards to High Elo. The opinion of people in low elo is worthless in the end, because when you try balancing to everyone, you just ruin many facets of the game while ignoring the real problems.

How can I state this factually? Morello said 'Master Yi is underperforming in high elo'. So what do they do? They nerf him, thus making him even WORSE in high elo. Making him seem hypocritical, making the balancing team seem like a joke, and making the game as a whole homogenized and stale.

Is that what you want? For the game to be recoined 'Leagued of Vision', with boring and generic and homogenized characters, with a stale and consistent meta that leaves no room for deviance, with one person in the team always being the ward lackey, with jungle continuing to have problems because you refuse to shake up the meta by continually nerfing characters that don't fit in the meta?

Serious question. Do you want this game to become that? Just a failed imitation of its former self? If you keep 'balancing' as you call it, as you do, then you are achieving just that.


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Zefer

Junior Member

08-25-2013

Just a quick thought. What about making Stalk the empowered ult and Hunt just the normal ult? And with Stalk it doesn't give back ferocity but makes your next skill empowered? Just to keep it balanced.


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Girofalcon

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
I've seen this a bunch in this thread so far, but i don't see it as having the same problems due to

- Stalk having less Stealth Duration than on Live
- Stalk losing Thrill of the Hunt's movement speed
- Rengar's overall burst being lowered

In general, there's a much lower window for Rengar to Sneak-Attack you. He can also just run and leap on you if his goal is to just get to you, but if taking your opponent by surprise is important (say, in a lane-gank) that option is still available and potent. Overall it takes a lot more planning and execution to pull off the stealth-attack, but you can forgo the planning and just bumrush them (at the cost of alerting them to your presence earlier)
These are horrible ideas. Rengar is just fine. With a 48% win rate and 6% popularity ranking overall, there is no reason to destroy the champion. This is not helping him. All this will do is piss off all rengar mains. These design policies will run this game INTO THE GROUND. Mark my words.


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Jyrachi

Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Bonus Question!- Consuming Ferocity on cast is still something i want to do, but i'd want to find a better bonus you get for 'Empowering' your Ultimate rather than duration. Suggestions? I anticipate a lot of '+Damage and +Stealth' time, but i'm open to hearing what you guys have to say.
I think something like greatly increased movement, or allowing the player to recombine hunting and stalking so they could still have a time when they would be capable of being unseen while chasing down prey. Another idea would be to add some of the old bonetooth necklace ideas that maybe didnt make the cut(i.e. increased movespeed while exiting brush, or temporarily increased resistances after leaping onto his prey seeing as the new rework really feels like it aims to neuter Rengars old burst and make him a more supportive hunter who helps his allies (or requires help from allies) to get things done).


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FurryKittenSoup

Senior Member

08-25-2013

How about 5 ferocity makes him invisible to wards?

Also, what are you planning to do to make Rengar's jungle clear better? Right now it is horrible and he can be easily killed by a counter jungle on his first clear.

Will the ad reduction on the Roar be enough to keep his health high while clearing?

This is very important, please respond.