A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ghostryker

Junior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
As for Hunt -> Stalk, i've seen a lot of you mention you think it should be reverse. Aside from my poor naming (Maybe Sprint->Prowl would be more accurate?), the basic idea around this is

1. Adds a window of time where Rengar can get caught out and still be outplayed - stealthing, picking a direction you want to go, and then bursting into speed to run away is kind of @_@. Hunt->Stalk at least has a period of time where you know he cant' stealth you, and if you don't play it right may not even need to use it.

2. Taken as evidence from our tests where the ult had no stealth at all - in most cases, i think 'Hunt' is more universal. When ulting with Rengar, more often than not you want to run fast. Whether or not you're getting into position for an Ambush or just running a guy down, if your ultimate button gave you nothing else, MS is more consistent and you can form an expectation around the button press. Seeing low-health dudes and pressing R, only to know your giant MS boost is ~5s away from activation feels like they're escaping from you just because we let it happen - while giving it to you upfront and keeping the Stealth optional allows you to premeditate it for when it would be useful to you.

Maybe i didn't explain it that well - only got like 4h or so of sleep (Damn you, gamescom !_!), but i hope it makes sense. I'm still considering all of these suggestions, this is just snapshot on where i'm feelin'
I agree with this point of view 100 percent.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

EnvyDragon

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Regarding the Ferocity bonuses on ult, I have a couple of ideas (not intended to be applied all at the same time):

-Ulting with full Ferocity reduces its cooldown, or perhaps starts the cooldown on activation rather than once it ends.
-The true-sight radius only occurs with 5 Ferocity, or only has a huge range with 5 Ferocity. Some of the power-budget can be balanced out into Rengar's other abilities, or movespeed/stealth duration.
-Ulting with full Ferocity applies a mark to the first champion you hit, granting you bonus gold/a temporary buff/bonus BTN stacks if you kill the marked target within a certain duration.

My reasoning for why these might be good ideas:

-If you ult with less than 5 Ferocity, it's probably because it was a spur-of-the-moment cast. You saw a low-health target, or you just needed to be on the other side of the map now rather than later. Ulting without max ferocity should never feel like a punishment or a compromise; the speed, sight, and stealth are what you're using it for.

-If you ult with 5 Ferocity, you've probably planned the ult well in advance (since you built up stacks to do it). You should be rewarded with something that will help you plan your approach, or give you good returns on the time and thought-bandwidth you spent preparing for the ult.

-The 5-stack ult thus SHOULD NOT have short-term benefits (so you don't feel like you're missing out if you ult for short-term gain), but it SHOULD benefit the player who has no other pressing needs.

-In general, I feel that the Ferocity bonus should be binary - either you have full stacks, or you don't. It makes sense with the way all of his other abilities get an "empowered" bonus, for one; but more importantly, full-stacks means you've prepared or you're lucky, and less-than-full stacks means you didn't prepare at all. A spur-of-the-moment cast shouldn't necessarily be rewarded because the player lucked out and had 4 stacks instead of 1, I think. It needs to be all-or-nothing.

Specific reasons why I suggested what I suggested:

-Reduced cooldowns are a simple thing that rewards you greatly for spending the short time it takes to max your ferocity. If you're using your ult on something urgent, you aren't going to sit back and use QWE one more time to get the reduced cooldown; if you're planning to hunt, though, you'll probably make the extra effort. It's like Diana's ult - most of the time you'll want to Q first if you can, but once in a while you need that extra dash right the hell now.

-True-sight is something that I feel isn't really necessary on a spur-of-the-moment ult. If you're ulting immediately, it's because you've spotted a target. You don't need the constant vision of them. Conversely, a planned ult with full stacks lets you search a little for potential targets, or pick the easier engagement if one enemy champion is more isolated than the other.

-The mark-bonus is just sort of a flavor-thing. If you're ulting with max stacks, it means you're planning the hunt, which means Rengar's got a particular prize he wants to take. It also makes the narrative- and gameplay-goals align further, by having the player plan out a hunt, wait for the perfect time to strike, and then rush out and take down the target for the greatest reward. An I-need-an-ult-now ult will be more opportunistic; a planned ult might deliberately wait for the target to be weakened so they have a better chance of detonating the mark.

But there are probably other, better ideas out there. These are just my thoughts on the matter.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Cacahao

Member

08-25-2013

True about hunt->stalk is best if you have to wait 5s or so, i was thinking that stalk would be a kind of tactical stealh( 5 secs maybe?) and then at half of that amount you could activate it. anyway, IMO if the hunt/stalk were reverse, you could eliminate (or reduce) the time to second activation.

And about ferocity feeling wasted when you ulti... you could make it a "if you have at least 1 ferocity X happens". But I agree with someone that said before of me, R ferocity should be a utility bonus... and I would like to see some extra jumps!

Another idea, what if the ferocity R is only when you 2 cast your R. For example, looking at this "extra jumps": First cast, rengars enter on hunt mode, wait to 5 ferocity, and if you recast R, ferocity is consumed and your stalk mode will give you some extra jumps (while R is on?) even if you lose your stealh at first attack.

in that case, and if you reverse the hunt stalk think, would make much more sense, but even if you doesn't having extra jumps is always funny xD

EDIT: Thanks you Scarizard for beign so active and reading every post!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ManiacHaywire

Member

08-25-2013

How about for each tick of Ferocity you have when you Ult increases the detection range of enemy champions by X amount.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Surakai

Senior Member

08-25-2013

his ult gives him additional movement speed for the entire duration and it also starts off with 2 seconds of stealth. he gains an additional 1 to 2 seconds of stealth near the end of his ult as well. by clicking R during his ult, you end it sooner than intended to immediately gain the second part of his stealth for emergencies.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TJAyo

Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Brief post before i head out for the day - been reading a lot of your Ferocity bonuses for R and while i appreciate the creativity, unsure if i'm gonna take anything i see - everything so far is kind of above the powerbudget i'd like to give it - i'm heading towards 'nice, small bonus' - where things like Tenacity, a Fear, extra Damage are all things that just make me feel like an idiot for ever ulting without max ferocity. I'll continue to mull it over and let you guys know what i'm thinking.
Ok,so I got an idea. Two actually. Both are insane.
1) Beast's Blood: A passive on rengar's ult. For every stack of ferocity consumed, Rengar sharpen's his blades, causing his next attack to apply scars. If a champion affected with scars dies, Rengar dips his blades in their blood, causing him to mark the ground in a spot in a set amount of time with his enemies blood, revealing the area. Additionally, Rengar can smear the blood on an enemy, giving him temporary vision of the enemy and bonus MS for each att. on the enemy. I knw it's kinda a crazy idea but I think it will make for some serious playmaking. each stack consumed will increase the length of the blood smear.
2) Ok here's crazy, stupid idea No.2.
Big Game Wager: For every stack or Ferocity consumed, Rengar bet's a certain amount of gold that he can catch his prey. higher stacks also lower the allotted amount of time that he has to commit the kill. If Rengar gets the kill or assist, this gold is added to the amount of gold gained from the kill or assist. But, if rengar dies or cant kill the target in time, he loses a flat amount of gold, as rengar is more of a hunter than a gambler. I figured this would work since when people go in stealth, they aim to kill. This passive wont proc if Rengar doesn't att anyone while ulted. I think this gives a little more reward for full stacks, but I suggest keeping the gold bonus low (like 10-50 gained and flat 25 lost) to prevent their being lack of choice, or too much risk.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ygg7alem

Junior Member

08-25-2013

how about ferocity stacks give you vision of the champion or monster you leaped to for the next 0 to 2 secs based on ferocity stacks consumed? seems minor enough, and in line with what the ult already does

use case is kitty really wants you dead and that bush is NOT your friend buddy (even less so than it already is)

Edit: when are we gonna see him on PBE, changes look reasonable and i bet we all wanna get these changes tested out


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

lm Krueger ml

Senior Member

08-25-2013

  • On Pressing R you consume all current Ferocity and store it in a buff.
  • You then regain this Ferocity when you next use an Empowered ability.
  • In the best case allows you to "store" 5 Ferocity to grant you two consecutive Empowered strikes on leaving the Ult.
  • You would always want at least 2 Ferocity before Ulting to be able to Q and build a second Empowered strike straight away (assuming Q train is still in). But building 5 grants the option to open with Empowered Bola Strike for the root and instantly begin the Q train combo with your Empowered Q.


This is a repost but I wanted to make sure you saw it, apologies.


EDIT: As an aside, I feel if the bonus for consuming Ferocity is too minimal you're going to have the opposite problem to "always wanting to Ult with 5 Ferocity". Instead you're just going to feel bad about wasting Ferocity instead. It'll be like you're losing it by Ulting which will feel pretty lame.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

GoodBadUglyHoe

Junior Member

08-25-2013

knock knock who's there lol not heimerdinger. NOT HEIMERDINGER EVER


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

laughingjackal

Junior Member

08-25-2013

Will Rengar still be able to split push and take towers as fast as he used too?