A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Gnargar

Senior Member

08-24-2013

so while in normal ToTH not stalk can he pounce or no?


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Henry Tran

Junior Member

08-24-2013

When Rengar reactivates Thrill of the Hunt, is there still a delay upon enter stealth?


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Archadion

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Bonus Question!- Consuming Ferocity on cast is still something i want to do, but i'd want to find a better bonus you get for 'Empowering' your Ultimate rather than duration. Suggestions? I anticipate a lot of '+Damage and +Stealth' time, but i'm open to hearing what you guys have to say.

Let me know what you guys think, and sorry for the delay!
To me, it seems like the obvious answer to that question was right there in the rest of the post. The community wants to keep the stealth, but it's difficult to balance since the lack of counterplay and suddenly having a kitten attached to your face is hard to react to. You also want a bonus for an Empowered ultimate. So why not make Stalk only available if the move is Empowered? It cleans up the entire interface of the spell, too. Can you imagine having a three-section spell description? One section for Hunt, one section for Stalk, and then one section for whatever the empowered version gives? Instead, it could be something like this:

Thrill of the Hunt

Hunt: Rengar activates his Predatory instincts, gaining % movement speed and vision of all nearby enemy champions. During this time, Rengar also generates up to 5 Ferocity and his first basic attack will cause him to leap. Lasts (Long Duration) or until Rengar uses an ability/leaps.

Empowered Thrill of the Hunt

Stalk: A few seconds after casting Hunt, Rengar may choose to reactivate Thrill of the Hunt. Rengar loses all bonus movement speed from Thrill of the Hunt, but enters Stealth. Lasts (Shorter Duration) or until Rengar takes offensive action.

You could even synchronise the ferocity gain with the time until you can enter Stalk. So when you reach five Ferocity from the passive, you can enter stealth. It means people only need to keep track of their ferocity and when it maxes they can think "okay, I can enter stealth now" rather than it being "okay, in three seconds I'll have ferocity and then in four more after that I'll have stealth, so I need to watch my ability bar."


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Bork Hammer 40k

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archadion View Post
To me, it seems like the obvious answer to that question was right there in the rest of the post. The community wants to keep the stealth, but it's difficult to balance since the lack of counterplay and suddenly having a kitten attached to your face is hard to react to. You also want a bonus for an Empowered ultimate. So why not make Stalk only available if the move is Empowered? It cleans up the entire interface of the spell, too. Can you imagine having a three-section spell description? One section for Hunt, one section for Stalk, and then one section for whatever the empowered version gives? Instead, it could be something like this:

Thrill of the Hunt

Hunt: Rengar activates his Predatory instincts, gaining % movement speed and vision of all nearby enemy champions. During this time, Rengar also generates up to 5 Ferocity and his first basic attack will cause him to leap. Lasts (Long Duration) or until Rengar uses an ability/leaps.

Empowered Thrill of the Hunt

Stalk: A few seconds after casting Hunt, Rengar may choose to reactivate Thrill of the Hunt. Rengar loses all bonus movement speed from Thrill of the Hunt, but enters Stealth. Lasts (Shorter Duration) or until Rengar takes offensive action.

You could even synchronise the ferocity gain with the time until you can enter Stalk. So when you reach five Ferocity from the passive, you can enter stealth. It means people only need to keep track of their ferocity and when it maxes they can think "okay, I can enter stealth now" rather than it being "okay, in three seconds I'll have ferocity and then in four more after that I'll have stealth, so I need to watch my ability bar."
I think... I think this man possibly deserves a medal. Holding off until Scarizard responds.


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ViashinoWizard

Senior Member

08-24-2013

I'm not sure if it could be balanced well, but what if the Fury consumed by ulting reduced the cooldown of Rengar's non-ult abilities? Something like 0.5-1 seconds per point? So if you've used W or E recently and see someone you want to go on, you won't have to wait as long to make sure your roar/bola will be available once you initiate.


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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

08-24-2013
56 of 81 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bork Hammer 40k View Post
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my feedback, I really appreciate that you're listening to us . Anyways, I absolutely agree about the cons to the AD/AS steroid. I wouldn't want to see his Q lose power just because he gets a huge damage boost with his ult :P.

How about this one as a possibility:

Empowered: Rengar gains extra range on his leap based on how many stacks of Ferocity he consumed.

I think this would allow him to pull off some incredible leap jukes or catch those really slippery ADCs that think they've seen the last of the knifecat.
One of the reasons we don't do things like different spell ranges that are non-ultimate (Zac's E is a recent example of where we've intentionally broken this rule) is that your enemies have no idea how many Ferocity points, if at all you've burned. So if you're in Hunt mode and just booking it, how do i know when to use my disengage spell? How will i know when you're about to leap?

I'd like to make the bonus something that Rengar-only kind of cares about. Duration fit that bill and i'm happy to go back to it, i'm just opening it up to see if there's anything we can do. Damage incentives make you feel like you never want to ult UNLESS you're 5-stacked, so making it too much of the ult's power makes the optimization point feel necessary. Ideally, this feels like a thematic/fun bonus but something you could live without.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerglinator View Post
Okay, here's a crazy idea that might be a bit OP and a bit crazy and perhaps too situational, but it sounds cool so hear me out:

Thrill of the Hunt Ferocity Bonus: Big Game-If Rengar achieves a kill or assist within a certain time span of Thrill of the Hunt, Rengar gains ANOTHER Bonetooth Necklace trophy.

Issue is for people that aren't using Bonetooth Necklace it doesn't really benefit them...there could be another benefit with that that makes it worth it though.
Really cool that Rengar could ever double-up on Trophy Gain, but i wonder about the implications of when/how. I'm unsure if Rengar (A champ who on Live is already approaching mechanical overload) could stand the complexity, but in a perfect world where we could do whatever we wanted, i'd want to see a 'revenge' mechanic. Basically you lose a stack when you die, but if you kill the person who last killed you, you'd take back the trophy that 'dropped' and a new one - this would reset each death you had and you'd probably only get it once - but it would definitely be interesting. Unlikely that it'd happen, but i'll keep my eyes open for Big Game passive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archadion View Post
-snip'd
I've had this idea as well but shyed away from implementing it first because ideally whatever thing the bonus provides doesn't really have the power budget to be super necessary - i'd hate for people to use their ult, and then realize they wanted the option to stalk but then didn't have the foresight to build enough ferocity.

I've already sync'd the delay on Activating Stalk and reaching 5 Ferocity - i've definitely had the same thought you have that going into Stalk would cost you the 5 Ferocity, but seeing as i want this to be a low-duration Stealth, fitting another cycle of Ferocity Generation into the Stealth seems ill-advised. While in Stealth, you have to be opportunistic and prepared. I wouldn't want someone to be forced to leap in Stealth without their 5-stack ready.

Not saying this wouldn't ever happen, but i don't see the particular gains of it as of now. The biggest win here i think is syncing the time window you have to enter Stalk with your Ferocity Gen, as it provides two sources of visual feedback (5s CD window on R, and your Resource Bar) as an indicator of when you can re-activate R.

Quote:
Originally Posted by X1zz3l View Post
First off all, thanks for being with us again Scarizard
This ultimate change looks really awesome and I'd probably like it but I have one concern:
Does Rengar REALLY need to lose ALL of the bonus MS when entering stealth?

Couldn't it just be...lower? Like if it's 30%/40%/50% normally, couldn't it be 10/20/30? (or 10/15/20 if too strong)

No ms seems rather lackluster to me but oh well, gotta try it first before saying anything :P
I could see myself going as low as 10%, but i've there's always been a dissonance to me of 'I'M INVISIBLE' and 'I'M RUNNING REALLY FAST' - if he ends up needing a very, very low MS then obviously i'll give it but for first pass i want to be firm about the tradeoffs he's getting.


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Chaosos

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Giving him an extra burst of move speed at the front of the ult for consuming stacks, that is for however long the delay is. Since the cost is frontloaded, giving a frontloaded boost seems to make sense. This bonus shouldn't scale with rank, the cost of building up 5 stacks of ferocity to use before you ult is definitely more significant early than later. So, assuming the delay between Hunt and Stalk is 3s, making the bonus MS 5% per stack consumed for 3s seems fair.

Other options would maybe be +25 leap range per stack for your leap out of ult.


Question: Say hunt lasts 15s, and stalk is like 5s. If I after 14s of Hunt use Stalk, do I get the same 5s of stealth as if I had pressed stalk again ASAP?


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LxLegend

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post

Bonus Question!- Consuming Ferocity on cast is still something i want to do, but i'd want to find a better bonus you get for 'Empowering' your Ultimate rather than duration. Suggestions? I anticipate a lot of '+Damage and +Stealth' time, but i'm open to hearing what you guys have to say.

Let me know what you guys think, and sorry for the delay!
What if the first basic attack after ulting did ~10% max hp damage over 3 seconds when empowered.


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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

08-24-2013
57 of 81 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaosos View Post

Question: Say hunt lasts 15s, and stalk is like 5s. If I after 14s of Hunt use Stalk, do I get the same 5s of stealth as if I had pressed stalk again ASAP?
Currently, Yes.


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Bork Hammer 40k

Senior Member

08-24-2013

I know this might be going off track just a bit but I'd really like to know about some of the iterations you've been testing during the long silence. It'd be nice to get more insight into the process.