A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Urist McDruid

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Member

08-21-2013

I get the intended direction of the no stealth mechanic on rengar. He stays in a bush. when his prey gets close, pounce, kill. Or he can chase someone down. He is a lion. That's what they do.

However, Rengar's stealth mechanic is an integral part of who he is. I'd like to see it kept, in a slightly different way.

When Rengar uses his ultimate, let him also stealth for the time it would take to generate 3-4 furosity (maybe 1-2 or 5, its just a suggestion). In this way, he can use the stealth to say, gank a lane, engage a fight without being seen, or escape a short distance. After the 3-4 furosity has been generated, or the time for that to happen has happened, he exits the stealth while still being able to jump.

By adding this little bit, it would allow some counter play by not allowing Rengar to stealth from far away, run a huge distance, then jump on someone. If you place wards correctly, you can still see where he is when he ults, or know where he is going.


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SargentOMalley

Member

08-21-2013

Im totally cool with his battle roar and bola strike changes but changing his ult and bonetooth necklace that drastically seems kinda weird, especially since his bonetooth doesnt give him as much offensive capabilities anymore. I mean he can chase better now but i dont see it giving him as much damage output as it normally would. And for thrill of the hunt i kinda liked going stealth but i can see how it is not really needed but what was needed was the ferocity generation aspect of it and from the sounds of it it just consumes all your ferocity and doesnt give u anything back, but i mightve missed another post or something.


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Nores

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notalent View Post
Kayle and Ryze were both recently top tournament picks, to the point that both had to be nerfed within the last 4-6 months. Karma actually has seen more play in tournaments post rework then she ever saw before it. None of those were failures despite the itty bitty tiny whinny karma community pretending otherwise. Leblanc is in a weird spot because shes definitely a more fluid character, but her numbers are a bit low and are due for buffs.
Kayle and Ryze seen tournament plays only because of their broken power numbers. Both Ryze and Kayle rework made them much less fun to play. And after subsequent nerfs they are never seen again ( Kayle never played after nerfs except by worst NA LCS team -VES, Ryze just got nerfed but he seen 0 picks/0 bans after nerfs already)

They kill champion feel and what makes it fun, but give it insane numbers so people play it for power, then they nerf the numbers too and champion just ends up in garbage bin

Same probably gonna happen with rengar - he gonna be overpowered bruiser because of broken numbers, but still boring to play, 2-3 months later he will be nerfed and never seen again


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SlashCruzadeR

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Junior Member

08-21-2013

Well I found a few minutes to squeeze so I will ask you something before I answer to your wall of text Scarizard but first I will republish my first question since you haven't answered it in like 17 pages of comments because you either missed it, you were busy or flat out ignored it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DdC Thanatoz View Post
The ball is in my court at the moment but is 3 a.m here and I have a pretty busy schedule these next few days so before I respond to your post I'm going to give you some food for thought Scarizard, rework Tankgar, since according to you he is getting higher base damages,lower cooldowns, more damage overall on Q and a super speed boost as escape then how will you deal with Rengar once people realizes that playing him like in December 2012 is the way that is gonna pay off more, remember how you guys nerfed Rengar almost to the ground because of Tankgar in late 2012? well what is going to happen when this beast is out of the cage again, ravenous hydra would replace the worthless utility necklace, add a sunfire cape and a spirit visage to the mix and you have the perfect splitpusher, there is not going to be the problem of sticking to a target to kill it since the only thing he would have to do is scare them out of lane and keep going on, if enemy team comes just press R and run away, well I'm off to sleep.
Second, I looked up your name in lolking and I couldn't avoid noticing that you have 11 ladder games with Rengar since his release(1 in season 2 and 10 in season 3 with 6 wins and 4 losses) and in your match history it doesn't show Rengar in the last 10 matches(with the one at the bottom of the list being from like 1 week ago), where I'm going with this is, when was the last time you played Rengar in live? and in a ladder level?(shows you at diamond 3), if you are working on a champion rework and you don't play that champion to at least have an idea of where he/she is standing at the moment then you are already wrong from the get go, if you don't have an idea of where Rengar is right now there is no humanly possible way for you to have a clear notion of where he is going to end up with the changes(better or worse than live), don't take me wrong, the ideas you have are pretty good but for a new champion maybe a more methodical hunter focused on traps and utility rather than for Rengar, I understand you are a busy man and that your team has more projects to work on than just Rengar but I'm pretty sure you can squeeze 1 or 2 games with Rengar every now and then since he is one of those projects you are working on, don't tell me that you play with the design team with live Rengar because, you want it or not, it doesn't count; playing with the same people over and over again even with different champions will make you get used to their gameplay even if you don't realize it. There is a popular saying, in Spanish is "Si quieres algo bien hecho hazlo to mismo" and it translates to English(if I'm not mistaken) as "if you want something done do it yourself", if you aren't playing Rengar with random summoners(I mean if you don't queue on normal blind pick, draft pick or ranked games) then you are just basing your opinion on what the community that doesn't like Rengar tells you(and let's be honest, humans tend to omit information in order to get the desired outcome) and I can imagine they tell you "Rengar instagibbed me with no warning" but they don't tell you: He was 10/0 with 5 turrets, 3 dragons and 250 cs in his pocket; I had 18 armor and a mana crystal in lane so he killed me lv 2 and snowballed from there, I was afk backing watching shop when I died, I was alone in the jungle with no wards, my team didn't group as 5 a single time, we didn't buy an oracle or a pink ward during the whole game. Also your knowledge of his potential is limited to your office environment instead of you creating an opinion by yourself, the 2 other people that have been mentioned play Rengar are Xelnath and Wav3break, Xelnath has around 70-80 games with Rengar since release(in ladder level) and wav3break has 15(only played in s3) but they are gold and plat in that order(not to undervalue their opinions but gold and plat aren't really that high, like I said I know you guys are pretty damn busy but you could at least put and effort on researching the situation of a champion yourselves) with you 3 guys playing him in the ladder you can get a pretty good grasp of his situation in a good part of the ladder(gold, platinum and diamond elo). I ask you to try and play at least 100 games with Rengar, you could start with the first 15 on blind pick then a few more on draft and finally to the ladder.

I may be mistaken but the notion of balance that i get from this game is that the weaknesses of a champion counterweight his strengths, you so far have only taken into account his strengths when fed "AND" played properly even though a lot of us have listed his weaknesses, and the changes you are making are dividing his strenghts making him not outstand on anything but his weaknesses still are the same, well that's all I could squeeze in these few minutes, I'll read ya later.


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aces2kj

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archadion View Post
@Scarizard. Twitch sets up an ambush,

Every champion in the game who has stealth has a good reason to have it. Except Rengar. He's the Pridestalker. It's in his name. He's an alpha predator and he will hunt. Animals in the real world hunt by stalking through the brush, keeping constantly aware of where their prey is until the moment they strike. They don't follow right behind their prey being invisible. That's the domain of a magical or alien being like Shaco or Kha'Zix.
Shaco has no reason to have any stealth whatsoever neither does kha so what if hes from the void chogath is from the void does he have stealth? and twitch sets up and ambush then what do hunters do? This is really flawed dude rengar is a hunter he makes sure his prey cant see him


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Mobilized Boat

Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by aces2kj View Post
Shaco has no reason to have any stealth whatsoever neither does kha so what if hes from the void chogath is from the void does he have stealth? and twitch sets up and ambush then what do hunters do? This is really flawed dude rengar is a hunter he makes sure his prey cant see him
"Shaco has no reason to have any stealth whatsoever neither does kha"

What the ****? Worst statement of the year.
Shaco needs to escape when he splitpushes and his entire ganking mechanic revolves around his Q. If he didn't have his Q, he couldn't gank. He couldn't splitpush or else people would chase him and he would die. How are you going to gank as Shaco if you can't instantly appear behind your opponent?

Kha'Zix needs stealth as well. As an assassin, he can kill someone, use his invisibility to have people lose focus and also reset his passive. Once you reset your passive, you can do it two more times for a significant amount of damage.

You are an idiot. Everything you said was wrong.

EDIT: Bronze III's shouldn't post in this thread.


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Mysnomer

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Senior Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyndrydyr View Post
Just keep in mind that Scarizard has said a million times that the numbers on BTN are basically meaningless placeholders...they'll change them however they need to. It's the mechanics they're working on first.
I don't buy this. I don't think a serious game designer deals in meaningless numbers. I think it's a way for Riot to push concerns under the rug. This is only the latest in a string of posts that present potential numerical buffs or nerfs which meet strong reaction, and Riot continues to assuage our doubts with "It's just numbers, they can easily change." But if that were the case, then Riot would have learned long ago to present us with a range of numbers that they're willing to test, instead of giving us a concrete number. Then, we could comment on what we felt the optimal amount was within this range, and as their testing narrows the ranges they're willing to deal with, they can post updates. Thus, we see the numbers shift as the process iterates, and thus our feedback can be "I feel the low end is too weak, but the high end has a potential to be too strong if his other numbers/ratios are getting buffed," instead of, "Seems low, wasted slot."


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Mobilized Boat

Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysnomer View Post
I don't buy this. I don't think a serious game designer deals in meaningless numbers. I think it's a way for Riot to push concerns under the rug.
I was thinking this too, but I realized that these numbers are going to be focused on later. I noticed that's what he does with a lot of his reworks.
Your argument may be correct, however. Look at Karma, the numbers were severely underpowered and they've had to be buffed over the course of, what, 5 patches?


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Kaellrus

Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobilized Boat View Post
"Shaco has no reason to have any stealth whatsoever neither does kha"

What the ****? Worst statement of the year.
Shaco needs to escape when he splitpushes and his entire ganking mechanic revolves around his Q. If he didn't have his Q, he couldn't gank. He couldn't splitpush or else people would chase him and he would die. How are you going to gank as Shaco if you can't instantly appear behind your opponent?

Kha'Zix needs stealth as well. As an assassin, he can kill someone, use his invisibility to have people lose focus and also reset his passive. Once you reset your passive, you can do it two more times for a significant amount of damage.

You are an idiot. Everything you said was wrong.

EDIT: Bronze III's shouldn't post in this thread.

Rengar also needs his stealth to get behind somebody since people will run if a big fast cat is running at them with a giant orange bar above their head.


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ScubaDivingPoop

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Not to mention hes still susceptible to CC especially now more then ever with his stealth removed. Just cause hes fast doesn't mean people aren't going to stun lock and burst him down. Hopefully this rework takes a long time so i can still enjoy rengar as he is.