A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Servantofthe99

Senior Member

08-20-2013

what about instead of giving his W a ad reduction, give him a scaling % damage reduction. Similar to how Gragas' W is. This can be balanced at all stages of the game and will give him the durability to be able to stay in fights longer.


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Dremiist

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Thrill of the Hunt
- Cooldown decreased
- No longer plays Voice Over or gives an Icon to enemies within Rengar's sight/detection range
- Consumes current Ferocity on cast - each point of Ferocity consumed increases the Duration of Thrill of the Hunt by 1 second.
- No longer stealths Rengar for the duration
- Duration greatly increased, scales with ult rank
- Movement Speed increased
- Rengar's first basic attack while in Thrill of the Hunt will cause him to leap at his target - Rengar retains the Movement Speed increase from Thrill of the Hunt for 3 seconds after leaping.

no, if you remove the stealth you need to add a giant leap of 1200 range, movement speed, armor magic resist or % damage reduction and make the first leap scale attack damage.

% damage reduction because you removed both the armor and magic resist on battle roar for something similar to tryndamere with the only difference that it will require you to hit your target like sona healing power chord , it's like having sona reducing the physical damage of the enemy with tryndamere mocking shout, sigh.

since you messed up W, R need to have damage reduction, like kha zix or garen. you lost your stealth you're merely an assassin and neither are you a fighter you need a way to soak up the damage when you'll go all in you're a fighter and a fighter has to rely on a defensive skill , kha and kat aren't fighter but they do have a sort of way to negate the damage they take. since when attack damage reduction has save tryndamere from anything he always rely on his damn ult.


Battle Roar
- Damage increased
- Cooldown decreased
- No Longer grants Armor/Magic Resistance
- Enemies hit with Battle Roar have their Attack Damage reduced

if you remove the armor magic resist from W for attack damage reduction it isn't a good idea because it won't protect you from magic damage. trynd mocking shout doesn't require you to hit your target , and late game is pointless btw

you're giving to rengar more damage , rengar doesn't need more damage late game he lack survivability, is damage already scale extremely well late game that isn't the issue

you're giving to rengar AOE attack damage reduction, now you gotta hope the enemy team are all AD. why do you give him more aoe power, he isn't made for that role, catching squishy off guard is what he's made for. he's a cat and cat always stealth they wait for the best occasion to catch on their prey, which why the OLD R made more sense


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Maverick013

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Scar, I see what you are trying to do, and for the most part the changes all make sense, except 2 things.

Q Train: Is rengar going to be relegated to a clean up crew champion? If the burst is lower, he can't hard engage (less now due to W nerf). You mentioned in one change in adding a %damage increase with empowered savagery. That would at least give him dueling power. If he can't burst like an assassin, or duel like a fighter, or tank like a bruiser. WHAT IS HE? Do not make more champs that get stuck in the "someone else can do this better". Rengar should not be a jack of all trades champion, while kha'zix (his counterpart) is a defined mobile assassin. If you want to balance him and make him viable,

Q -train needs to have more depth than just running stacks, at least for late game, because you are either going to not contribute to the initial fight and be forced to play the back and HOPEFULLY find an opening. Or you have the same problem as current rengar, you dive the carry, kill it and die, or dont, and die. You have YET to mention how you fixed this problem despite referencing several times.


Bone Tooth: I think your too trigger happy like most of the other devs besides xypherous (who tries to plan things out in the long run), when it comes to items. Changing this before a massive jungle change in gold and style will create a bigger problem than what is going on now. Also with the current iteration of gold disparity between lanes and jungle. This item is efficient for the junglers but not laners. Plus the passive for butcher, is wasted in lane now due to the removal of being effective on minions. Thats more wasted gold, in lane, where I can save for a bf sword.

I recommend talking to xypherous before finalizing this change on Bone Tooth


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Zevwolf

Junior Member

08-20-2013

After seeing the short update on Olaf I just had an idea for his ult that I believe would provide a nice synergy with the berserker fantasy that Olaf attempts to fill. Instead of letting Olaf immediatly discard all CC when he ults (which seems to be insanely hard to balance), give him %CC reduction that goes up the lower Olaf's health gets, capping at 100% CC reduction at a certain % of low health (20% maybe). I feel that this would allow for counterplay as CC would be somewhat effective up until its time to make the final push and kill him. This would also provide some room for the rest of his kit to be buffed to a competitive level without making him overbearing. Also if the numbers are too high they allow for changes in future patches instead of needing another rework or nerfing the rest of the kit.


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Dremiist

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Thrill of the Hunt
- Cooldown decreased
- No longer plays Voice Over or gives an Icon to enemies within Rengar's sight/detection range
- Consumes current Ferocity on cast - each point of Ferocity consumed increases the Duration of Thrill of the Hunt by 1 second.
- No longer stealths Rengar for the duration
- Duration greatly increased, scales with ult rank
- Movement Speed increased
- Rengar's first basic attack while in Thrill of the Hunt will cause him to leap at his target - Rengar retains the Movement Speed increase from Thrill of the Hunt for 3 seconds after leaping.

no, if you remove the stealth you need to add a giant leap of 1200 range, movement speed, armor magic resist or % damage reduction and make the first leap scale attack damage.


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Dremiist

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Give him more resistance.


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Ghostryker

Junior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Read this!

There's currently a bug with Dev Tracker where my posts aren't showing up - i've been reading every post here and responding when i can, but due to this issue it's easy to think i've somehow abandoned this thread. I haven't! I'll c/p at the bottom posts i've made since then so you can respond to them in turn, or at least be up-to-date with my information rather than having them drown out 10-20 pages later.

BEGIN MAIN POST------------------------------------------------------------
Hey y'all -

So i wanted to talk to you guys about our good ol' Stabtabby, Rengar. Classick handed off to me his initial refactor of Rengar that he had begun posting about a while back, but internally it was shown that while it certainly buffed him and fixed some issues with his design, more work needed to be done.

What our playtests revealed is that preserving the predatory feel by making his ultimate stronger is all well and good, but proved pretty abusive when it came to his burst potential. In a way, Rengar is a champion that has always been defined by his abuse-cases, either in TripleQ assassinating someone in less than a second from stealth, or double tap W + DFG pentakilling teams from stealth with AP, or simply stacking health + spirit visage splitpushing waves, then escaping from nearly any sort of chase. We've come a long way from the latter of these, but if the Pridestalker is to see any sort of return to glory we'll need to iron out some of the abusive kinks and round him out as a whole.

We're sticking with the direction that Classick originally outlined in his post here (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...71487#37371487) - namely reducing the frustration/toxicity of Thrill of the Hunt (Ultimately allowing us to buff the spell in other ways) and driving clarity in his Ferocity choices by having the effects scale with champion level rather than rank of skill. Our other goal is to retain his dueling nature and strength in ambushes and skirmishes, but lower his instagib potential in favor of deferring his up-front damage into longer engagement windows. While he'll still be a threat, changing him to a sustained damage pattern allows us to pump more power into his other abilities/ferocity bonuses and make his ability set as a whole stronger instead of the current 'stabcat on AD carry and one or both of us will die' pattern that makes Rengar so frustrating and binary to play as and against on Live.

So with that out of the way, here are some questions i'd like to get your thoughts on -
END MAIN POST---------------------------------------------------------
Before I get to the specific questions I want to clarify what I get from Rengars theme.
He is an Apex predator. He specializes tracking his prey then bringing them down while they scramble to fight back. Rengar is Lion. Lions are amazing predators in the real world. Great cat's in the jungle do this buy sneaking through tall grass until within range, doing a short burst of speed to close in when needed then pouncing on their target.

Stealth is a key part of his kit and identity but that doesn't necessarily mean that stealth has to be a simple button press. Moving through the brush makes any champ stealthed yet it also gives Rengar the leap capability. This mean Rengar specializes in the stealth that brush brings. He can have more stealth than that but it is important to rememeber that stealth ult or not Rengar will always be a sneaky, surprise based champ because of how his passive works.


-Do you identify Rengar's playstyle as one that would be a particularly good fit in the jungle? What improvements would you like to see be made to help him out?
Jungle Rengar needs to clear groups faster and better survivability.
With minor aoe and no self heal until a few minutes in the early part of the jungle can be rough compared to several of the other jungle champs.
The one thing he is pretty good at is coming out of the jungle to attack an enemy in lane with a vengence. That is a key part of his identity as the alpha predator.

Bonetooth Necklace
10 AD, 1 AD/Level
Recipe: Hunter's Machete + Long Sword + 100g
PASSIVE: 20% Increased damage to monsters


Really need to balance these stats to be equally useful hitting enemy players as it is hitting monsters.
Unique enhancements are great but still anything that takes up a slot has to be a stat stick as well as whatever else it will be.
Particularly considering that in real games there are a lot of times where neither side wracks up a lot of kills...so BTN needs to be useful even at low kill numbers.

3 Stacks: Rengar gains Flat Movement Speed while out of combat, or while in brush
OK.
6 Stacks: Leap range increased
OK.
9 Stacks: Thrill of the Hunt lasts X seconds longer
OK.
14 Stacks: Rengar gains % Movement speed for 2.5 seconds upon exiting brush[/B]
OK.
General
- Health Regen, Health Regen/lvl, and Health/lvl all increased

Unseen Predator
-Now becomes visible at the beginning of the leap, rather than midleap

OK.

Savagery
- Attack Speed reinstated, -slight- buff to %AS, -slight- nerf to base damage.

Might be OK. Depends on numbers.

Ferocity Bonus: Savagery
- In addition to dealing bonus damage, grants Rengar 3 Ferocity.

I like this.

Battle Roar
- Damage increased
- Cooldown decreased
- No Longer grants Armor/Magic Resistance
- Enemies hit with Battle Roar have their Attack Damage reduced

Needs to be AD AND AP reduction or it will only be useful verses certain champs and that is too circumstantial.
I do like the damage buff and improved cd as he needs some aoe in to blast through the jungle camps at a better rate.
What is currently fun about it is being able to survive in tough situations.
This can be done in other was but needs to keep the general utility it has since it is effective against both magical and physical damage.
If it is going to reduce AD it needs to reduce AP as well.
OR it can do something like fear targets in a similar way that Volibears roar does.
Either way it needs to be a useful survival tool against any enemy champ.

Ferocity Bonus: Battle Roar
- Heal unchanged
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level

I like this.

Bola Strike
- Damage increased
- Bonus AD Ratio increased
- Is now a skillshot
- Increased Range

I like this but I see why some don't.
personally I prefer skill shots with better rewards over guaranteed things with less reward.

Ferocity Bonus: Bola Strike
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level
- Root duration increased

I like this.

Thrill of the Hunt
- Cooldown decreased
- No longer plays Voice Over or gives an Icon to enemies within Rengar's sight/detection range
- Consumes current Ferocity on cast - each point of Ferocity consumed increases the Duration of Thrill of the Hunt by 1 second.
- No longer stealths Rengar for the duration
- Duration greatly increased, scales with ult rank
- Movement Speed increased
- Rengar's first basic attack while in Thrill of the Hunt will cause him to leap at his target - Rengar retains the Movement Speed increase from Thrill of the Hunt for 3 seconds after leaping.

I REALLY like all this...being able to chase down targets faster is very helpful for crossing lanes and such. Moreover it fits the theme of jungle great hunting cat's.

As an addition- someone suggested that during this ULT Rengar gets temporary stealth when coming out of the brush. This would keep some version of stealth while tying in perfectly with his brush leaping attack style. But it prevents the "free sneaking" kind of feel it gives now.


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Wyndrydyr

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DdC Thanatoz View Post
Is worthless because:
* extra ms in bushes is nothing since bushes are pretty scarce throughout the map, the ones that exist in the areas with higher concentration are small and your passive makes you jump on top of the target if you are in range and in a bush.
Have you ever honestly caught a Nidalee in the jungle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DdC Thanatoz View Post
* reduced leap range is laughable, 150 extra range(right now in live) is barely a melee champion range and he is reducing it since it can be accessed earlier i think from 150 to 100 so it might as well not exist.
As Scarizard has said a million goddamn times, numbers right now don't mean anything, they're all placeholders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DdC Thanatoz View Post
* extra duration in the ult, the ult is pretty much just a free ghost with this changes(nothing final yet) and why would you need extra duration since you are just going to get the ult up more times with the lower cooldown
This ult is SO much better than ghost. Increased movement speed for FAR longer plus seriously increased vision and Ferocity generation on a [relatively] low cooldown. That's REALLY GOOD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DdC Thanatoz View Post
* max stacks, more movement speed upon exiting bush, this doesn't make you stronger, just makes you harder to catch but then again you will have ult up more times with the reduced cd not to mention that this is at 14 stacks, too much work and risk for something that i will get every 30 seconds(if he is actually reducing the cooldown on ult, at the moment I get it to 40 seconds at lv 16 with max cdr)
No, what it DOES is makes you scary in the jungle. The ability to straight-up just disappear due to increased movement speed...circle around and pounce on your lost and confused prey from a different angle...that sounds EXACTLY like a jungle cat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DdC Thanatoz View Post
Also I may have worded that incorrectly(I'm sleepy!!!), the necklace is worthless for lane Rengar and it isn't that appealing for jungle either, also bonetooth necklace is supposed to be a snowball item like mejais or Sword of the occult but with smaller benefits that stack(armor pen cdr at 3, ms at 6, extra leap at 9 and extra seconds on ult at 14)
I have a really deep-seated problem with this argument. What anything in this game is supposed to be is what the developers make it, not what the community interprets it as. Lots of people played Yi AP...that doesn't mean that's the way Yi was SUPPOSED to be. In fact, it was pretty much the opposite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DdC Thanatoz View Post
with this changes Rengar isn't a stronger duelist with a 3 stack necklace, he just gets "more" utility and sadly in this game utility is linked to tanks and if i wanted a utility jungler there are other 50 to pick that do a better job in that role than Rengar
I really disagree. It makes Rengar a stronger duelist...when he's fighting his opponent near brush. Or in the jungle where he can massively abuse Fog of War. You don't have to be playing jungle Rengar to be fighting in the jungle. If you [as a top laner] don't find yourself fighting in the upper jungle at least semi-frequently, you're probably playing top lane wrong.


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Wyndrydyr

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DdC Thanatoz View Post
Last but no least: Most of the community and people that actually play as or against Rengar don't find this rework necessary
And you just invalidated literally everything that you have to say. This forum is such a tiny subset of the ACTUAL community that any circumstantial sense you have of 'community opinion' is utterly meaningless. Just because 'General Discussion' is up in arms doesn't mean that the actual majority of the players/testers aren't enjoying something. General Discussion will get up in arms and rage about literally everything, nothing we say is all that important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DdC Thanatoz View Post
nobody asked for it
Rengar's not being reworked for the sake of Rengar, or at least, not entirely. Rengar's being reworked so that his opponents don't hate playing against him, which in turn lets Rengar become more powerful overall since his power isn't centralized on a toxic play pattern that's unfun for most everyone involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DdC Thanatoz View Post
this community isn't against reworks(people have been asking for heimer and sion since long time ago, sion maybe less but I'm sure heimer has been asked for a long time, check evelynn too, since she was nerfed to the ground like 2 years ago people wanted her to be buffed/reworked), in fact, a big part of the community is really creative and has given pretty good ideas that have been completely ignored, so no, people isn't going to forbid Riot from reworking champions that actually need it but we also want to be a part of it since the champions being reworked are the champions that we play and we don't want that our feedback go ignored, a lot of people have given easy solutions but the balance team just keeps avoiding them.
Just because they haven't announced why the community's ideas won't work doesn't mean that they're ignoring them. This forum and the LoL subreddit constantly get bombarded by people begging for skins that are clearly copyright violations, and Riot has stopped saying 'we're not going to do that' because it's a waste of their time, whether or not the idea is cool.

And yeah, Rengar needed a rework. Really badly. The fact that you enjoyed playing him doesn't mean that he didn't need a rework. Triple-Qing people to death in 1.5s from stealth is LOTS of fun. For YOU. That doesn't mean that it's healthy for the game.


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Wyndrydyr

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krimson62 View Post
Right now rengar has a consistent 47-49% win rate.

His fans are loyal, and love the way he feels.

So i ask since he is winning games, but not too many, and his fans love him... why are we changing things... especially things the fans don't want changed?

Leave... Rengar... Alone.

This threads beginning had me excited, now it has left such a bitter taste in my mouth that id rather just spit out the idea and never try it again.

Go fix champions that need it like sion and heimerdinger. Quit wasting your time and ours
No. Rengar is being fixed - not because he's not fun to play, but because he's not fun to play AGAINST. There is a difference.

Removing/relocating the power from stealth will allow them to boost power elsewhere in his kit. E is a skillshot now? Well it also hits harder, for longer, from further away. Personally, I'd prefer the risk/reward, because actually succeeding would make me feel a lot more vindicated right now vs targeted snare.