A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Raiyn

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard
snip
I no longer feel "disenfranchized"

Thanks for responding to DDC Thanatoz post; while I don't agree with some of what you've said its a much better iteration than before. (I realize you don't need to give one at all/need to do any of this but do it out of making Rengar...better in a different way - again something I don't entirely agree with or support).

Thanks again, and sorry - I still feel though that Reds tend to respond to the extreme snappy or extreme pleasant posts rather than those such as Thanatoz's - where its just detail/content and no real anger or pleasantness one way or the other.


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Wyndrydyr

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Gah. And I was really excited about the 'no stealth' thing, too. Ah well.


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Vivi R66

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
I don't want to come off as rude, but:

Elise's Cocoon
Jayce's Shock Blast
Kennen's Thundering Shuriken
Kha'Zix's Void Spike
Lee Sin's Sonic Wave
Rumble's Electro-Harpoon
I dont want to come off as rude, but:

Jayce has splash damage
Kennen is manaless and spammable as hell
Khazix has splash damage
Rumble can use twice

Problem with Rengar in lane having that, is that he never really will have much room, as when he is top lane, he is TIED to bushes to have lane pressure. That will make him impossible to harass, he will become purely an all-in character. Or built tank.


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Zerglinator

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivi R66 View Post
I dont want to come off as rude, but:

Jayce has splash damage
Kennen is manaless and spammable as hell
Khazix has splash damage
Rumble can use twice

Problem with Rengar in lane having that, is that he never really will have much room, as when he is top lane, he is TIED to bushes to have lane pressure. That will make him impossible to harass, he will become purely an all-in character. Or built tank.
Rengar's not manaless?


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Rastamon Ganja

Senior Member

08-19-2013

I would love to test the new Rengar when he comes on PBE! Is Riot ever gonna open up sign ups for the PBE anytime soon?


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RYKK888

Junior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by NA Darklarik View Post
The changes on Q, W, and especially on E are very welcomed, at least, by me. As for the R, im still torn, i would like to hear that idea of the model where he isnt exactly visible, but not totall invisible, that you have to play close attention to see him, as well as what other Stealth ideas your working with.

On a side note, Even at Full stacks, it dosent seem to me like BTN is an attractable Late game item, im talking LATE LATE game, like 35-50 minute in. An 800 G item will never compare with some of the more potent items out there. Could you give it some lategame upgrades to make it so if the game drags on, i dont feel inclined to sell it? It would really make all that Trophy hunting and stack gathering kind of worthless.... :/
I really like the Bonetooth upgrade idea. That way we could give it more stats by putting more gold into it later. I also heard an idea earlier about a separate lane and jungle Bonetooth item. Since the current one has +damage to neutral monsters/minions, that part is kind of wasted on lane Rengar.

Also, about the semi-transparent Predator stealth everyone keeps asking about, Scarizard actually posted a while ago why he didn't want to go that way. Here's the page with it. He also talks about Evelyn-style stealth. http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...5#post40810495


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Prof Nekko

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Elise's Cocoon
Jayce's Shock Blast
Kennen's Thundering Shuriken
Kha'Zix's Void Spike
Lee Sin's Sonic Wave
Rumble's Electro-Harpoon

This is a list of capable solo-lane champions that have skillshots, pretty essential their kits, that don't go through minions. They all as well have some form of speed-boost or gapcloser that helps them to outmaneuver their lane opponent.
I'm just gonna chime in here how he didn't make mention of Karma's Q in this list... Which is humorous because it's a skill he himself created.


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tabasco777

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Junior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
To clarify, i never said that Thrill of the Hunt has no counterplay. There is a high degree of frustration with a champion that has Stealth+MS+Gapcloser on a single ability (coupled with high burst damage, to boot)- we had an initial refactoring that just had a few slight tweaks to Rengar, and we found that by releasing him back in that state he'd be powerful and more viable, but not any healthier to the game. Thrill of Hunt had enough frustration in the playing against case that introducing -more- counterplay to the Ultimate appropriately would allow us to go through with not only those changes, but any other that added power and fluidity to Rengar.

Rengar just...kind of appears and stabs your face off. Or, he fails in doing so and dies. Yes, pink-wards do exist - but when he's running super fast and has a long-range gapcloser whether or not you can see him, the pink ward doesn't really do anything but give you a moment's warning before he just kind of executes his buttons on you and you live or die. As i said before, this ult having a lack of counterplay doesn't make him OP PLS NERF - it just leads to a lot of scenarios where, when strong, it feels incredibly overbearing and unfun to play against. Which means in this case low counterplay holds him back from ever being a stronger champion in general - that's what i'm getting at here, if we buff Rengar without solving the counterplay, the number of situations where Thrill of the Hunt is a hopeless/foregone conclusion goes up as does the frustration with the champion. By finding ways to add counterplay or reduce frustration, we create an environment for a healthier Rengar to exist that is fun to play as/against, deepening the gameplay involved and opening the power budget for the champion.
If putting a pink ward isn't enough to introduce counterplay to Rengar's ult currently, then how is removing the stealth, upping duration, and increasing the MS gain going to introduce more counterplay? It will just make him visible as he "rocketcats" onto somebody's face. Either the ult change is a straight nerf or you aren't accomplishing the job you set out to do.

A better option in this case would be making it so that his leap from stealth only applies as long as he is still invisible. Thus if the pink ward is down, he can't leap onto a carry until he leaves its radius. It makes sense, seeing as how his passive and its name really support the idea that he NEEDS to be unseen to leap onto somebody.


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Persona J

Junior Member

08-19-2013

I'd like to take a moment to take about how i feel new Rengar is going. Scarizard i know it's difficult dealing with people who don't know the game development process. Rengar was my absolute favorite jungler when he got released...and then fixed.

My favorite change so far has been the Bola strike, i always felt that it should have been a skill-shot, it's a Bola for Christ sake, you it's very nature is to be thrown at someone at range. Clicking on someone at short range always felt kind of stupid.

Battle Roar is an interesting one, i don't really mind the changes but i do feel you have been imposing your own story on why he is roaring. There are plenty of reasons to roar in battle. Roar out of pain, anger, intimidation, frustration and so on, all of these could have different outcomes effect wise.

Stab Q does concern me a bit. It seems to be aimed more at lane dueling than jungle ganking, the reason most people use the triple Q and like the burst damage is because that's what you need to do in a gank, either lock them down to deal damage or burst them down fast enough so you don't need to lock them down. At the moment is seems like in order to do either you will be lacking the other.

When i first heard about the stealth removal i think i reacted similar to other people since although an invisible knife cat doesn't really make sense it is kind of a big part of Rengar and how he plays. The more i looked at it though the more i think the value of the speed boost is. I do think Rengar should retain some stealth, you haven't said what your re-implementation method is but something like ult reactivation gives a few seconds of stealth or something like that would still bring the same things back, like ward evasion and sneaky positioning without giving him the problems he had before. I will wait to see what you do with it though.

Don't let the ignorance get to you, you are doing good work. Can't wait to test him out on PBE, the severe lag does hinder accurate testing though.


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Mysnomer

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Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof Nekko View Post
I'm just gonna chime in here how he didn't make mention of Karma's Q in this list... Which is humorous because it's a skill he himself created.
Well, I mean, he'll obviously stretch the truth, the but to include Karma among a list of legitimately viable champions, that's pushing it. :P