A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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thatsgerman

Junior Member

08-18-2013

As a veteran Rengar player who has seen the ups and downs of Rengar I feel like its time to put out my opinion

Bola Strike
Ive liked what you have done to the E, makes laning a lot more interesting with ranged champs. Before I would max E when facing ranged champs which meant continually bola striking them at a range, which lasted for about 20 min... really boring...
assuming that there is a damage increase it would make the lane a lot more interesting

Battle Roar
Meh, as someone who plays trundle as well I feel like damage reduction never had any meaningful impact in a duel, especially If I am playing top Rengar any AP top is going to laugh at my battle roar, which really does suck when some AP tops are already hard to play against (Ryze and Elise). For jungle It might help for bot and Top lane ganks, but I feel like id rather have the tankiness so I have an extra tankiness from all enemies than reducing it to Tankiness for AD champs, THAT I HIT. Then again I havent used it and It actually could be an amazing ability, numbers wise it seems unimpressive but who knows..

Thrill of the Hunt
I honestly dont even know where to start with his ult, where I saw good change from his E and possibly better use of his W, His ult changes I feel makes him one of the most bland and boring champs I have seen. The one good thing I saw was empowered ult with consuming his current stacks to increase duration I think is an amazing idea and would really help with Rengar when to use empowered abilities or have a longer ult. This would make some interesting gameplay changes, even if you guys didnt do his ability redo I think this should have been added to his current kit.
The bad...
The removal of stealth is one of his key gameplay mechanics, its what made rengar, RENGAR! Since Rengar and Kha'zix are champs based on the Predator and Alien movies, Rengars ult really made him like Predator and made for some really fun gameplay! I have a friend who plays Ori and there is nothing more fun than ulting in a bush with her ball on me to then run in the middle of their team and have her ult on me so then I could jump on the ADC. I know Riot doesnt like stealth but ive never fealt like it was so strong that it needed to be removed, I mean shaco and twitch have similar stealths but they are basic abilities! (and yes I understand that their kits are based around these abilities but still) I think the warning + stealth would have been a nice nerf for jungle rengar, but would have hit top rengar way too hard, but I would rather have that then the complete removal of stealth to a boring steroid ult like Master Yis...


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Vulcanicmist

Senior Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DdC Thanatoz View Post
First allow to introduce myself, my IGN is DdC Thanatoz,I have more than 2 years of experience in this game and at the moment I'm a diamond player Rengar main who unlike other mains of the same champion, I have played him since his release in PBE(way before live). I have seen him go from a mega overpowered champion that could literally do every single role in the game:

-He was a better assassin than in live(he had 170% extra damage on empowered Q-Savagery, way more than the 150% on release and the 100% atm).
-He could be a great full tank with good damage output or an excellent off tank(both with the Q damage but also his W used to give 60 armor and mr and heal 15% of max hp)
-He could be a hilarious ap nuker with W having a great base damage of 270 and 1.0 ap ratio.

To the champion that he is right now. Before people says that my opinion is biased I'm going to say that it may be part true but also I know the whole spectre of this situation, I have gone against countless Rengar players during my time playing league so I know how it feels to gib and be gibbed.

This comment will be a 2 parter, the first part will be my feedback about these changes that you guys are planning on doing/testing and the second part will be more of a rant, and I hope you guys at least take my feedback into account because you guys are known for ignoring community feedback( looking at Karma remake).

First Part:

-I will begin tearing apart your statement that Rengar or at least hit ult has 0 counterplay, from 7/23/2013 to 8/15/2013 Rengar has an average of 8.68% pick rate and 46.92% win rate(taken from lolking and calculator :P). If your statement was true, his pick rate would be much higher since he should be a free win and who doesn't want a free win at least in ranked? also his win rate should be more than 50% since not all the games taken into account are normal blind picks where there could be 2 Rengars making 1 of them lose but it also counts ranked queues and ARAMS(taking these into account since these are the most common queues and I don't know if lolking counts Dominion too, most likely it does but for the sake of the argument in leaving it out) and since the team that has Rengar will always win(in the hypothetical situation that he has no counterplay like you mention in your statement) his win rate should be more than 50% but it is lower than that, what does that mean then? do we have cheats that let people win against this overpowered champion? I don't think so. Also worth to notice that his ban rate isn't 100% so that means that people know how to deal with him.

-The Q train, you say you are nerfing his instant burst to make him more of a bruiser/fighter with damage output in a 3-6 seconds interval, let me tell you that those 3 to 6 seconds are an eternity for a teamfight and Rengar doesn't have that long specially since he doesn't have sticking potential unless the enemy is dumb enough to fight Rengar in a bush or to run trough one(if they are alone) or if the enemy team doesn't focus you at all and just lets you slap the carries around summoners rift at your leisure, this will create the conflict of do I still build an insane amount of damage glass cannon items? or do I focus more on survivability/sticking potential?, this will become a vicious cycle and at the end the alternative will be just going Tankgar and splitpush all day since the attack speed steroid is still there and I will also be able to spam Q's to take down towers faster also i will have a massive movement speed boost to run away from enemy team when they try to catch me splitting.

-W Battle Roar from resistances to ad reduction like trynd's W but that actually affects minions, is true that his roar should give that fear factor to his enemies but there are 2 ways to see this, the first one already mentioned but the second one, Rengar is a prideful hunter and with a reason, he has survived countless battles against formidable preys and he has the trophies to prove it, his roar is a manifestation of this, his confidence/cockiness empowers his whole body and makes him relentless and more resistant to damage for when he has to get in those engagements with his dangerous prey. With this changes you are cornering him to a jungle role.

-E Bola shot now a skillshot, sorry but you dropped the ball on this one, this is the last nail in the coffin for top Rengar, before i get into gameplay let me tell you something, Rengar is an expert hunter, he has toned his body, weapons and abilities over the years, this means that whoever he chooses to be the target is not gonna escape the bola shot, that is the point of the bola right now in live, now to gameplay, if you make bola hit minions then it is just gonna be so easy to dodge in lane by hiding behind minions, even if it becomes like ezreal's Q people can just sidestep and dodge it, if you make it that it doesn't hit minions or monsters then he won't gain ferocity from it in the jungle hurting his jungle clearing/ganking potential, the bola strike right now gives Rengar a fallback option in those hard lanes where he can't max the Q because he is gonna get out-traded(Jax, Irelia, Panttheon, just to name a few) or gives him a way to bully safely if he is winning the lane and doesn't want to take risks.

-R no stealth, this change is worse than the bola, you are not only changing his gameplay but also his theme, he is so similar to the predator from the franchise that taking his stealth away conflicts with his overall theme,in gameplay terms, you are giving him a massive speed boost but no stealth, what's the point of that? He won't be able to get to the important targets now that everyone can see him and even if he gets to them we get to the point I made with the Q and W, he won't have the damage to take them down or won't survive long enough specially with the battle roar now not giving mr and with aoe compositions being so popular that is a major problem and all this brings us back to the easy exit, splitpush all day with tankgar and let me remind you that this is what made you nerf Rengar at the end of 2012, pros were just going full tank and splitpushing all day and that imo is far more toxic than we are dealing with right now. If you actually read the posts that some people did in this thread you would know that several have given the same option and is the perfect one to deal with his no warning/no counterplay ult problem(according to you), give him the predator's stealth effect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrw7D-YXlo0

At 0:36, 0:41 to 0:43, 2:01 and 2:18 to 2:35 you can see the effect of seeing a predator during his stealth.

An easy way to compare this is with the dark templar from the starcraft franchise or any stealth unit, there is wobbly effect when enemy stealth units walk trough your screen adn you don't have detection, this is a win win situation, it gives us Rengar players a closer feeling to the predator, keeping the surprise factor on the preys not paying attention but also rewarding those who actually watch the map, this lets us bypass wards unless the enemy has a sc2 pro player apm and is checking every single gap in the map where they have vision each second, if you want to throw in maybe a 5% extra mov speed it would be awesome but the numbers right now are fine since this solution isn't that gamechanging.

-Bonetooth Necklace now a jungle item with reduced stats and more utility, sorry but that's not the point of the necklace, with the changes on W, E and even Q cornering Rengar to a jungle role you are pretty much making it so that every Rengar jungle will have to buy this item, your argument is that know he can bypass wards by "brute force" with his massive speed from ult like Rammus or Hecarim, then why would I pick Rengar when I already have those 2 champions who would do a better role at that since their speed boosts are not linked to their ultimates and they have far more reliable crowd control than Rengar, again, the necklace is a way of Rengar to show off, how does he show off? with his trophies but how did he get his trophies? trough battles, what happens after a warrior survives a battle? he not only has more experience for the next one but he is also stronger and that's where the stats from the encklace come from, he has survived a lot of skirmishes and now he is stronger(armor penetration, base dmg/dmg per level and cdr), he is faster(25 mov speed), he is more agile(150 extra range on leap) and he is sneakier(ult lasts longer), the new necklace doesn't make rengar stronger in any way, he is just utility and if i wanted an utility jungler there are other 50 that can make a better job. At the moment the necklace is in a good place, it isn't mandatory for every Rengar player to buy it but if stacked it gives you a nice extra kick, you also wanted suggestions for a max stacked necklace passive well how about this:

10 AD + 2 per level

*3 stacks: 10 flat armor penetration and 5% cooldown reduction.
*6 stacks: +25 movement speed
*9 stacks: 150 extra leap range
*12 stacks: Trill of the hunt duration increased by 3 seconds(no more next attack gives 2 ferocity after ult)
And for the 15 stack give him back the PBE effect on maxed 18 stacked necklace(talking about PBE release when item had 18 stacks)
*15 stacks: Bonetooth Necklace becomes activable, when activated instantly fills Rengar's ferocity bar to full.(Cooldown same as yoummuus ghostblade 45 seconds)

With this change you would be giving Rengar more variety for teamfights, he not only could go in and blow up the carry or just use a bola strike to snare a target but now with this he could pull a clutch empowered roar for a lifesaving healing, he could pull a bola chain to lock down a target, he could use an empowered Q after locking down someone with his empowered E, the amount of gameplay this option opens is high, since this is a pretty strong effect it is at max stacks of 15(pretty hard to achieve), if you want to use those ideas for necklace then why not make another item since your necklace is useless for top lane Rengar, this new item would be unique so people won't buy both making them annoyingly strong but would also give Rengar a fallback option in case he falls behind, he could go tank or off tank with the utility of the new item since he at the moment is pretty weak when he falls behind and is really hard to come back up.

TL, DR: Give Rengar's ult the wobbly effect of the predator and change the necklace a bit(explained above).

That is the end of the part 1, I seriously hope you rioters read it, if I forgot to mention something just ask me and please bring your arguments since I'm sure I can shut them down, don't just go ahead and butcher champions left and right because you refuse to listen to the fanbase's feedback.

Part 2:

This art is going to be a rant, i suggest you don't read it since is mostly me raging :P

I respectfully ask you Scarizard that you stop doing this kind of reworks until you at least resolve the Karma situation, I know several Old Karma players that don't like the new one since now she is just another spam Q mid laner and there is no more "karmatic" feeling like the old one, let's be honest, you and your team ignored completely the fanbase on that rework and the result is now a champion that is picked less and has less win rate than the old one, you would say that she is more viable but she is just generic now and you plan on doing the same sh*t to Rengar, of course there is people that likes the new karma but when I asked them why they told me that it is because you guys just keep buffing her to make her more appealing when the problem is her concept, the fanbase has asked you to give her 2 mantra charges but just keep ignoring them and makign her spells stronger and stronger(and she is still not played), here is a comment on surrenderat20.net that pretty much resumes how me and several other people in this community feel about you and your reworks:



If after all this you still decide to go trough with these changes I just ask you one thing and one thing only, instead of Rengar name him Elmer Fudd, the Wannabe Hunter since you are changing Rengar's gameplay AND theme completely.
Riot please read this.


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toaster jockey

Junior Member

08-18-2013

I guess the only meaningful feedback I was able to glean from the past however many pages of rage, hyperbole, and insults is "people are concerned that his ult won't feel impactful if it completely becomes a steroid."


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Arkara73

Member

08-18-2013

Rengar hurting ADCs too much because they are too dumb to buy GA, Pink, or Oracles rework plz.


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Nores

Senior Member

08-18-2013

The thing is current rengar already has low winrate. nerfing the only part which makes him viable (ability to 100 to 0 a super squishy when insanely fed) will mean that he will be complete garbage tier.

But of course scarizard gonna have none of that and just keep buffing his numbers till he becomes a generic bruiser whose only unique ability is to jump from bushes. see karma - ridiculous numbers buffs to the point that she is almost broken. she still not fun to play but at least when she can take half of your hp with Q


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Raiyn

Senior Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nores View Post
The thing is current rengar already has low winrate. nerfing the only part which makes him viable (ability to 100 to 0 a super squishy when insanely fed) will mean that he will be complete garbage tier.

But of course scarizard gonna have none of that and just keep buffing his numbers till he becomes a generic bruiser whose only unique ability is to jump from bushes. see karma - ridiculous numbers buffs to the point that she is almost broken. she still not fun to play but at least when she can take half of your hp with Q

Sounds like the direction this is heading 80% agree. Don't agree with karma and half ur health Q. But it sure is a boring champ with absurd numbers.


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Tschomb

Senior Member

08-18-2013

I just really dislike how these nerfs to Rengar (And anyone really) are just indirect buffs to ADCs. Seems to me that not a nerf/buff goes out that can't be linked to an ADC nowadays.


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M40A3 ACOG

Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PallasAthens View Post
-Keep Rengar out of the jungle. if you do that, You have to increase his healing ability by much more than it is now and decrease his ultimate CD by a fair amount to compensate for the loss of farm. Rengar doesn't belong in the jungle just like Khazix-They should only be there if you have no other option. Not only does Rengar lack the AoE to jungle properly without sacrificing everything that makes him, well, him, but an Assassin only does well with items, especially Rengar. If Rengar farms up, it's the enemies team fault for not stopping him-And he is very counterable.

-The defenses from his battle roar are honestly not all that noticeable. If he gets aimed, he's going to die.His Battle roar is only effective in pretty much the laning phase and in 1v1 assassinations. How to make it more effective? Easy, you shift it into an offensive buff. If rengar gets aimed in a teamfight, he's dead. No amount of shields or defenses will help him. Unless it was a mini shield effect from Eve, but that would be ridiculously overpowered. So buffing it or changing it to provide a temporary defense is not solving a problem but adding a new one.

-Bonetooth Necklace, I think is fine. High Risk, high reward item. In most competitive games you'll rarely see it because of the safeness of those games, where getting 14+ kills really isn't that optimal. In lower level games, it probably runs rampant. I'm not going to pretend to know the numbers, but those are my guesses. How to make it better? If you remove that attack, you'd have to give it some good buffs to compensate-However this errs on the side of knowledge. If it literally is 'An item that buffs your abilities and stats such as CD and MS', there is a burden of knowledge associated with that.

I played Rengar massively when he first came out, and play him here and there. In order for him to be successful, he needs to have a very one sided laning phase-if his opponents get ahead, and they take advantage of that, then there's no coming back for Rengar unless he gets a lane to himself from 10 to 15 minutes. He does have counters, and he is extremely risky at how it is right now.

How to make him better? I think he's good as it is. His ulti CD is a bit long, but if a rengar plays well, then they can and should carry the game. There is nothing toxic about being rewarded for good play and good strategy.
your 100% right, it seems like people don't know the difference between fed and overpowered. I can't count how many times people have called me OP in game because i played Rengar smart and got ahead. It seems like whenever someone displays a champions utility and skill, instead of complimenting them, they spam OP. It ends up turning into a witch hunt and nothing changes. Rengar in my opinion is find the way he is. With assassins, its all about high risk, high reward. People need to realize this and stop complaining.


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PublicEnemy13

Junior Member

08-18-2013

Bye rengar refunding you now


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BlueRoseleader

Senior Member

08-18-2013

Scarizard may i ask a question, Does RIOT support ADC's being the only job that is good? If not then give us something to counter with such as oh i don't know RENGARS STEALTH!!! If you do feel that the game should be centered around the ADC then let us know so we can all ask for our refunds and find a different game, it isn't just rengar either." Urgot is too hard on the meta adcs? NERF TO THE GROUND!!! Whats that? tanks to tanky NERF TANK ITEMS AND ALL TANKS!!!!!! To much hassle trying to place wards and playing intellegently? NERF RENGAR ULT, EVE PASSIVE OP TWITCH AND VAYNE ARE OKAY THOUGH CAUSE DEY META ADC LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL"