A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Poohmajinbuu

Senior Member

08-17-2013

As an ADC main, I think these changes are detrimental to Rengar. The one thing I would focus on after laning phase was how I was going to survive Rengar and being ready to hit flash or barrier at any moment. I don't play against him often, but when I do there is always that scary feeling that Rengar could ruin my day and it kept me on my toes.

But with the stealth removed.. I will be able to kite him for days... BoRK is very popular now and the most popular ad carries right now all have a second escape (assuming you want Rengar to be assassinating the ad because of the new AD reduction on his W.)

Once our team spots the squishy rengar charging in like a baboon, I'm gonna 90 caliber net/peacemaker him 2damouf and the rest of my team will clean him up instantly. I don't see how these are positive changes.

On a side note, the bola change may be good.. but then again creeps happen, and the person peeling for the carry can easily block it now. JUST MAH 2 CENTS


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orghak 6

Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I was really skeptical about these changes. In particular, when I saw them on paper, I didn't like the change to a skill-shot on E or the stealth removal on R.


... then at Scarizard and Wav3break's insistence, I actually played it. It worked really well. I didn't realize until after the game how little I missed the stealth. In fact, most cases where I would have used the stealth to escape - I could simply outrun the enemy.

Similarly, in cases where I would normally try to use my ult to stealth & run, but it would fail on live, due to never getting the "stealth" effect off, I occasionally survived.

The skillshot version actually made me a *better* player. People couldn't vision juke me into brush - I bola shot them blindly. The skill shot also makes me more dangerous in ganks - the range is far better than on live.

I acknowledge the validity of your skepticism, but as a veteran Rengar player, I didn't realize how little I appreciated the stealth until I was sprinting around the map without the need to use it.
That was the cheesiest most BS thing I've read.

You failed to convince me you even like this trash.


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IcySlayer

Senior Member

08-17-2013

But on a more serious note the changes to rengar have inherent design flaws. Due the kit changes are around bootless rengar and his jungling starting item to his special item wheres the flaw o wait he has no tankyness or tenacity which is HUGE on all jungle champs except twitch/jungle carries(who still will build a tank item or 2 anyways).

There is also the fact that there are already 2+ boots are optional junglers the first one everyone thinks of is master Yi and then Rammus(he gets max speed at level 1 so hes the best example). Also both of these champs have gap closers(yi's is flat out better then rengar's) and they both have high natural durability which rengar lacks in spades(expectantly what you are going to do with him).

In this direction you guys are Olafing rengar which is your tring so hard to make him be all in well trying to make him something hes not. Rengar is meant to be a stalker champ so invisibility is the ideal ultimate for a stalker.

We don't need any movement speed if we want them then we just buy boots we wouldn't rely on a gimmicky special item/ultimate.

The direction you are taking rengar in the fact of items and everything makes me think of something that should be on rammus over rengar due to the nature tanky all in nature of rammus over the stalker like nature of rengar.


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Bydlarius0

Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I was really skeptical about these changes. In particular, when I saw them on paper, I didn't like the change to a skill-shot on E or the stealth removal on R.


... then at Scarizard and Wav3break's insistence, I actually played it. It worked really well. I didn't realize until after the game how little I missed the stealth. In fact, most cases where I would have used the stealth to escape - I could simply outrun the enemy.

Similarly, in cases where I would normally try to use my ult to stealth & run, but it would fail on live, due to never getting the "stealth" effect off, I occasionally survived.

The skillshot version actually made me a *better* player. People couldn't vision juke me into brush - I bola shot them blindly. The skill shot also makes me more dangerous in ganks - the range is far better than on live.

I acknowledge the validity of your skepticism, but as a veteran Rengar player, I didn't realize how little I appreciated the stealth until I was sprinting around the map without the need to use it.
I, for one, don't care if Rengar actually turned out stronger without stealth (there's always cranking numbers to absurd heights, like you did with Karma). Stealth is iconic part of Rengar's kit, the one that conveys the predator feel the most. And skillshot slow is incredibly inpractical in teamfights. This is the same as Mundo's Q, and he already struggles pretty hard in bigger fights (Unlike Rengar's E, at least, it does respectable damage and the slow doesn't decay).

I'm sure you're already decided on the direction, and all this crying out is in vain, but I'm really at my wit's end with these reworks. The only one that doesn't look grim so far is that of Skarner, and even then it's a mile away from being completed.


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Snazzy Catz

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Everything looked fine in the update but as soon as i saw stealth is no longer there with his ult that completely put me off of rengar as to me that was his defining aspect and you just took that away from him now.


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Gespens

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Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastamon Ganja View Post
This:



Hmmmm. Like someone already mentioned before:

Rengar: the Pridstalker

not Rengar the PrideRunner or Rengar the PrideUnstealthedSuperFastRunner
And he still meets that requirement. Rengar's design is themed after a Lion, creatures who prowl, then leap at their prey and chase them down.

It also works better to show him as a sort of opposite to Kha'zix, a 'get in get out' Assassin. Rengar will now hunt you down, catch you, and kill you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnKdsnDa4kc

That is Rengar, except he'd actually catch you.

His passive fits the 'stalker' approach. And his ultimate now gives him the feeling of apex predator, rather than a guy who just jumps and eats you. Rengar was a guy who would jump on you to surprise you, then engage in combat until he can kill his opponent. He takes his time. Kha'zix however, wants to kill you and improve himself. He will ambush you and hit you with 'cheap tactics.'


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Phok It

Junior Member

08-17-2013

I am not happy with these changes at all. It just seems like they are wanting Rengar players to only jungle now and never play top. With the changes to his W and E, it does not seem as though he will be able to trade effectively. And with more emphasis on 2v1 lanes, or AP solo tops, how can he survive laning phase?

His W now reducing AD is fine and all, but what good does that do us against AP or ranged tops. At least with his W now, the armor and MR can help negate a little bit of the incoming damage when you trade, or just go in for cs. And his E being changed into a skillshot will make laning all that much harder. As it is now, you can max E first and at least be able to harrass effectively or farm relatively safely. Sure, these spells now work well in the jungle (W for safer jungle clear/farm, and E for ganks), but for those of us who like laning with Rengar, we are left with massive nerfs.

And finally, his ult no longer granting stealth. It changes who Rengar is. People say there is no counter play to Rengar going in and instagibbing an ADC, but that is what Riot has labeled assassins as, someone who can burst down a champion quickly, but who in turn can also be bursted down. And Rengar has no escapes after he uses his ult. It's not like Kha'Zix who can get his reset, or Zed who can literally W away and laugh while Death Mark is still on his target. If Riot is dead set on removing stealth, then make his ult feel more like a predator. The movement speed increase doesn't mean anything when the enemy team gets their CC chain on me. If any Rioter is reading this, at least look into having all of Rengar's auto attacks leap to the target during its duration. Just something so he can keep his unique predator feeling.

Sorry for the long post, I love playing Rengar but have put off playing him much when I heard about his "rework". If these changes stay as is, I will have to keep Rengar shelved for good


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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

08-17-2013

Gonna give another post before i finish for the night since it's late -

A few thoughts:

Firstly, a personal one. I'm not -hiding- from any of you guys because i stopped posted an hour after i posted the changes. I just left the office because work was over and i had plans. It happens to be Friday, and i'm a human being - so i went to see the 'All Random, All Mediums' Art Show with non-league pieces auctioned by the creators of league art themselves. The show was awesome, the art was awesome, the people were awesome.

And i spent 100% of it on my droid reading the forums, taking a break, refreshing the forums. The ride up, the show, the dinner, the ride home. I am not hiding from you. I care what you think. I spend honestly far too much time reading what everyone has to say from the truly unique but maybe hard to balance ideas, to the flatly incorrect, to the constructive feedback, to the rage about anything i do.

I'm being sincere when i say i wish i could just post more and communicate more, and i apologize if i'm never able to meet that threshold of attention that you guys desire, especially when we are working on big changes that you dudes are passionate about.

Second, about Xelnath. Xelnath is a cool dude - he has a ton of experience in design, and despite his crazy 'somedays i'll crash the playtest with my mad scientist ideas' i learn a good bit from him just based on the set of values that he has, even when they clash with what's balanced/balanceable in our game.

We also disagree on a ton of things. Especially on the removal of stealth from Rengar's ultimate. It was something i was trying because the tuning of our previous 'warning' mechanics were leaving much to be desired and not doing a whole ton in the way of counterplay, and he actually really enjoyed it.

This isn't 'Xelnath approved! You all have to like it!' I'd just appreciate people laying off personally attacking him or his play just because he happens to think it's good. Dude plays a ton of Rengar and happens to like the changes. And as for 'You're not a true Rengar player because you used your ultimate one time to run away.' One time he used it to run away, and one time he lived. Am i to believe that anyone in this thread has never once used their ultimates to escape a gank or sticky situation, ever? Are you to believe that anyone is not 'a Rengar player' just because they did? I don't mean to be granular, but it's something i've read a lot in this thread and it seems nonsensical.

Which leads me to the next thought -
It may very well be that the removal of Rengar's stealth is a terrible decision, one that ruins the very fabric of space-time, and if that is so i will not go through with it. I'm not saying 'yep, i've made up my mind!' What i'm saying is over the time i've worked on Rengar (with some changes inherited from Classick), we have tried a lot of things on a lot of abilities. Some of them have even been fun. This is just another change that's trended well in our testing, and while i'll continue to try it, nothing in this thread is final. I'd like a version similar to this to go to PBE so that players who are passionate about it can test and give feedback, but i will always make the best decision for Rengar.

A few misc thoughts -

-28 AD on bonetooth is not final, and is the exact reason i tend to not post numbers. Numbers are inconsequential. Everything about a champion could be buffed 500% if we believe the mechanics are on-point. Bonetooth will have enough AD to compensate. None of these Rengar mechanics are in our competitive balance tests, and as such, aren't really being tuned. We're nailing feel and mechanic direction.

-To the one person some pages back who thought we were taking the slow from Bola Strike, how did you get that idea? I mean this honestly because if i posted something misleading i'd like to correct it. All i said was Bola Strike is getting more range/damage due to being a skillshot.

-All this talk of 'Predator has stealth, Rengar needs it' sounds really silly to me. This is completely outside of the discussion of whether or not Rengar is a good candidate to have stealth on. The argument that 'just because he is based on a thing from pop culture he must mimic that in all ways'. That's not how we make champions, nor will it ever be. The Predator alien is a tech-using alien bounty hunter. Rengar's a lion that uses hand-made tools and lives in the jungle. He has a launch skin based off of the Predator because it seems really cool (and because we knew Kha'Zix was not far off), and they both use heat-seeking vision. Rengar's had a ton of inspirations, from Lion races in other IP's to Hunter characters from other IP's - There are more compelling arguments as to why rengar should have the mechanic, but saying that he needs it because the two characters are similar is something i can't buy

EDIT: About this being jungle-centric, Top Rengar is still totally a thing that we want and will be viable. From all of our lane-testing between myself and other top laners within the company we haven't seen that he's much worse, other than his 'lol first blood at level 2' all-in is considerably weaker. His Q-train hits like a truck, and increased AS% as well as generally better bases + cooldowns have added to his damage potential in toplane - not to mention the AD Reduction make him take almost 0 minion damage and really put the breaks on AD scaling champions/bruisers that like to rush tank stats (Lookin' at you, Renekton).

Will continue to tune and make this true, but the reason a lot of this looks jungle-centric is just because we wanted to make sure that any buffs/changes that were to increase Rengar's general performance would buff his jungling aspects as well.


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Oni Hanzo

Junior Member

08-17-2013

ok just no I love playing rengar as an assassin its what he in my eyes is meant for not a bruiser if he is going to chase down with this new ult then any cc or escape then the person being chased will turn on him and have a clear advantage and it was a clear waste, and with no burst to follow up the ult it would have very little point besides getting killed.


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2xOninja

Junior Member

08-17-2013

wow can't believe I just read 15 pages of meaningless *****ing about some sight unseen thinktank ideas. I don't go on the forums here much, but from what I'm seeing in this thread that's what most of the people waiting out time bans must be doing. I like Rengar and think he does need a rework, that said I'm not sure this is right for him but I'd like to try it out on the PBE before I make any judgements.

I like that E is a skillshot, but it might suck if it's done wrong (duh) right now it's a big part of his ferocity generation in lane so if it doesn't hit minions and the enemy is hanging back... if it hits minions then he doesn't have much harass in lane. So what if it returns once it hits max range and hits anything on it's way back? If it homed back in on him like Draven's ult he could get some nice moments in team fights by looping it around the front line and nailing the carry with a slow.

I'm not heartbroken over the loss of stealth, but I'm not convinced that a MS buff is the way to go. Honestly guys Rengar did not fight Arnold in the 80s; he's not The Predator, he's the self proclaimed greatest hunter in the world. He's also a giant cat. Leaping on people is the most fun part of Rengar IMO and while the stealth is OK I'd trade it for more catlike agility in teamfights (leaping on *****s). Have you ever tried to chase a cat? They're slippery, not fast. He should be difficult to deal with, toying with his prey before finishing them off. If he can't be an instagib assassin (I still think that's what he should be) and he sure as hell isn't a bruiser he needs quick escape/initiate mechanics like lee sin or kha' zix. I don't really care if his whole kit gets scrapped; after all the nurfs he got after release he went from broken pwnage to broken inviability, while completely reworking his ult sounds huge it might not be enough :\