A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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RYKK888

Recruiter

08-16-2013

Some suggestions and concerns:

Successful E could allow a free jump. This will help him avoid being kited with people who can dash away after his first jump and also provides some unique chase strategies in the jungle. Or if not a jump, AT LEAST grant vision on a successful hit so he can jump if in brush.

Does his Predator Radar Vision extend for the entire duration of his ult, or only until he jumps? Previously, radar vision was used to find and hunt down specific targets before bursting them down very quickly. They died fast enough that true vision was not necessary after the first jump. However now that his damage is spread out over more time, it may be necessary to keep that true vision after the initial jump to really stick to them. Especially for the team, since true vision no longer sets him up for an insta-gib, even 3 secs of continued true vision like the move speed boost would seem reasonable.

If would be awesome if Rengar could keep some aspect of his stealth. Maybe 1 sec stealth after entering/leaving bush while ulted, or a 1-time 3 sec stealth at some point during ult (maybe reactivate ult to trigger this). Taking away all his stealth ability destroys his character so much.

As I understand it now, Rengar's ult has been changed from stealth and true vision to basically a combination of TF reveal (but longer duration, non global) and Quinn's move speed boost (but without attack speed buff and ending aoe damage). Without seeing the numbers, I'm a little concerned that this wont become a major nerf long run. Taking out something as major as the best stealth skill in game and replacing it with a move speed buff that could easily be heavily nerfed in the future is a bit scary. Especially since his ult gives no boost to damage, it's a lot of utility with no damage for an assassin. Also when any champ has a skill with that much power in one single area (HUMONGOUS move speed) I could easily see people complaining later about it, causing it to get nerfed and leaving Rengar with a good (but not ult-worthy) move speed boost with no damage instead of his current stealth.

Since his ult currently gives no damage for an assassin character, what if Rengar recieved +percemt AD or +armor pen during the duration? That way it would truly be a steroid that would help him to both fine and catch prey but also kill them. I'm thinking about how Riven's ult allows her to do sustained damage throughout a teamfight.


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Eliptical Logic

Junior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Update time!

So, after some tests, the big changes i've made are pretty close to what i'd like to see in the final version. I'll go through some of the core changes to my current changelist here, the reasoning behind it, and then update the main post with the differences as well. If i don't make mention of a mechanic from Live or from my previous post in these updates, it means they haven't changed.

Bonetooth Necklace
10 AD, 1 AD/Level
Recipe: Hunter's Machete + Long Sword + 100g
PASSIVE: 20% Increased damage to monsters

3 Stacks: Rengar gains Flat Movement Speed while out of combat, or while in brush

6 Stacks: Leap range increased

9 Stacks: Thrill of the Hunt lasts X seconds longer

14 Stacks: Rengar gains % Movement speed for 2.5 seconds upon exiting brush


And for the big one:
Thrill of the Hunt
-Cooldown decreased
-No longer plays Voice Over or gives an Icon to enemies within Rengar's sight/detection range
-Consumes current Ferocity on cast - each point of Ferocity consumed increases the Duration of Thrill of the Hunt by 1 second.
-No longer stealths Rengar for the duration
-Duration greatly increased, scales with ult rank
-Movement Speed increased
-Rengar's first basic attack while in Thrill of the Hunt will cause him to leap at his target - Rengar retains the Movement Speed increase from Thrill of the Hunt for 3 seconds after leaping.
Ok i can deal with the roar changes, bola changes, removal of triple q it seems like, and even the the btn which seems kinda weak now, but rengar is one of my favorite champs and the change to his ult seems like it will loose that sneaky ambush or i lost my eye let me retreat hunter mechanic i mean u did give him massive ms which sounds kinda like a duct tape fix could you plz consider giving maybe a short, possible very brief instant stealth, or atleast a cleanse mechanic on the ult. i mean since the enemy can see now and cc you till ur ult is just a leap applier??? Plz dont kill the big cat the changes seem scary


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Jbels

Senior Member

08-16-2013

You know what's funny? He was just here a few posts ago when people were praising the changes, and now he's nowhere to be seen when everyone realizes they don't like it. Coincidence?


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Enfys Ellezard

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Senior Member

08-16-2013

This is not a rework.
This is butchering.


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Mango027

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Bonetooth necklace, have it affect minions too.


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SculptorOvFlesh

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Senior Member

08-16-2013

So you remove the key skill that made REGNAR, REGNAR, And added move speed? *clap clap clap* So much for our ultimate hunter. Khazix is laughing. Maybe you should remove Khaz's evolution's too. Cause you know, they make him stop to do them. While your at it, take Noc's darkness and tf's vision.
Real Riot, get ****ed. Please continue to run your game into the ground. I can't wait for November when I can put this dumb**** obsession of a game to rest.


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Jimmys Rustled

Senior Member

08-16-2013

So today I looked over the Rengar changes and wow, am I disappointed. I love playing Rengar for the simple fact that if there's a team fight, your come in late and you survive and there's a straggler, you can use your ult to find them and hunt them down or use your ult to get to the adc behind the front lines using your stealth. But now I find that Rengar's stealth is removed and replaced with nothing more than a Movement speed buff. Why is Rengar becoming another Yi/Hecarim/Rammus? Lots of players love Rengar for the literal thrill you get when you go into stealth and start hunting down your prey. But with the removal of your stealth, you're left to an open eye and can't be the "Predator" you're supposed to be.

What I don't understand the most is how Riot said that players loved the movement speed of Rengar's ult. Since Rengar was released, not once have I ever heard that. You can ask any pro Rengar player and they will tell you that they love Rengar's ult for the stealth and hunting feel to it. Absolutely no Rengar player wants the change to his ult. The only ones who I can see wanting this are the main ADC's that get blown up from the only good Assassin left in the game who has the fun aspect left in them.

Riot, please be the company we want you to be and provide some answers to this. And don't just say "We made the changes so it leaves a bigger pool of opportunity." The only opportunity he has now is getting seen running straight at their front line.


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Toru Itai

Senior Member

08-16-2013

honestly.. i'd rather you just remove rengar than do this.. please leave rengar alone.. this is horable..


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Servantofthe99

Senior Member

08-16-2013

uh...you just destroyed rengar. this is absolute ****. weakened q damage, no durability on W, no stealth...what the heck does he have exactly? you completely made him into the standard run of the mill bruiser, and a bad one at that. that ult is horrendous. its just a movespeed bonus? gee wiz golly thanks for that. i honestly don't even know what else to say. you completely ruined the feel of rengar and turned him into an entirely different theme.

oh and the necklace sucks too. 28ad at level 18?...

again...that ult change is nothing short of laughable. thank you for completely rendering rengar useless. and try not to release anymore champs with stealth if you're going to just take it away.


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Dementation

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Update time!


Battle Roar
-No Longer grants Armor/Magic Resistance
-Enemies hit with Battle Roar have their Attack Damage reduced


If you've read my prior posts, you know my feelings about Battle Roar - specifically that it doesn't especially inform who Rengar should be effective against, and thus just gives up a lump of power that's hard to tune while remaining satisfying. Feedback from this thread also has been consistent that Battle Roar's allure is Rengar imposing his will/intimidating opponents, not I AM LOUD AND TANKIER NOW.

Attack Damage reduction allows him to handle jungle minions pretty well, but also makes him a monster in fights vs champions that rely on basic attacks/physical damage abilities (like carries, or other fighters), while still keeping him vulnerable to magic damage abilities from tanks/mages. Overall, the goal is that if AD reduction can work out you can reach a spot where leaping onto Physical Damage dealers and roaring makes you feel more like you're actively shutting down their damage potential rather than just being beefier than usual. Before you guys start biting my head off about how he won't have the tankiness to survive , i totally see this as an opportunity to introduce better base stats if it shows that he desperately needs the durability.

Bola Strike
-Is now a skillshot
-Increased Range


Wav3break was always pushing for this and i was always pushing against it, but after having played around with it i really, really like it. Making E a skillshot allows the skill to generally have more power (Range, Damage, Effect are all vectors to tune, though i'd rather lean on the first two) - but also gives Rengar the feeling of 'i have an option at all times'. Even when out of brush and in a siege situation, a traditional weakness of Rengar, the ability to harrass or create picks with Bola/Empowered Bola grants him more flexibility. Similarly, playing against feedback has been great (Got first blood with a jungle gank using Empowered E - felt like a boss landing the clutch shot, opponent felt it was much more fair due to being able to dodge).

In general, making Rengar's pattern once he leaps on a target require more play/interplay and less guaranteed allows him to feel much better when he -does- succeed. This change has been trending well, but is something that we'll be watching across future playtests to tune to appropriate power.

And for the big one:
Thrill of the Hunt
-Cooldown decreased
-No longer plays Voice Over or gives an Icon to enemies within Rengar's sight/detection range
-Consumes current Ferocity on cast - each point of Ferocity consumed increases the Duration of Thrill of the Hunt by 1 second.
-No longer stealths Rengar for the duration
-Duration greatly increased, scales with ult rank
-Movement Speed increased
-Rengar's first basic attack while in Thrill of the Hunt will cause him to leap at his target - Rengar retains the Movement Speed increase from Thrill of the Hunt for 3 seconds after leaping.


So, we tried something crazy with the ultimate when concerns came about that the VO/Icon gameplay, while functional, was removing a lot of Rengar's threat because people knew his gameplan. By taking -off- the stealth entirely and just overloading the parts of Rengar's ult that people were appreciating (Ferocity Generation, Insane Mobility, True Vision) and let him have access to it more. Mid and end-game Rengar's spend a majority of their time being predatory in nature, stalking brush and being opportunistic upon chasing down low-health targets post-fights - which is also made easier by giving him movementspeed post-landing, allowing him to execute his Q-train combo/Bola strike without just failing to keep up to his prey. On the other end making Rengar's gank + ult combo reliant on 'brute forcing' a gank ala Hecarim's E or Rammus' Powerball gives your opponent ways to play against it either by seeing them coming on wards and running or by otherwise predicting the gank paths a Rengar may take.

I agree that it sounds big...but the more we've played with it, the more people have realized the Stealth part of Thrill of the Hunt is perhaps the least-appreciated part. You still run insanely fast, you still leap. Removing Stealth also allows us to pull back slightly on some of the damage nerfs we've done to Rengar, as he telegraphs his intent very easily by being an insanely fast rocket cat.

(Bonus Round - To give you an idea of what we're dealing with, Rengar with no Boots, 14 Stack Bonetooth, Rank 3 Thrill of the Hunt and 5 Points of Ferocity can run from the bottom lane brush to the toplane's river brush before the Ultimate's duration times out, as long as you make clever use of all the brush inbetween.

That's with no boots. It's pretty awesome to see.

So, be sure to let me know what y'all think about this version. When Rengar goes to PBE (SoonTM), this is likely very close to the one that i'll throw up for players to mess around with. A lot of your feedback has helped a ton in shaping the versions of Rengar in testing and lot of the conversations we've been having, so don't stop now!
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dunkmaster View Post
He's an all-in assassin with no escape to gtfo.

So they nerf his damage so he can't burst someone.

His (rarely used for escaping) stealth ultimate.

His tankiness to survive his all-in playstyle

His stealth to make it seem like you're stalking your prey like a real hunter.



Yep pretty much spot on analysis there.
Yea, this rework looks like another typical rework that completely ruins the champion(soon to be Olaf too) and is most likely going to turn him into another bruiser since you completely gutted every single thing about him. I think you guys should stop trying to "rework champions." Karma and Trundle are sure being picked more often right?