A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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ablazennn

Junior Member

07-29-2013

In the past few months I've picked up Rengar as my main, because my favorite champions are assassins and early game lane bullies.

Rengar is both in the early levels, and late levels if he manages to get some of his core items and not fall behind.

While I do like some of the changes that are proposed, I would prefer for his ultimate to not signal the fact it has been used to nearby enemies. This provides way too much counter play, along with the fact his burst potential will not be as significant.

EXAMPLE: You've harassed your lane down enough to make use of your ultimate, you're not going to ult in front of him, so you get out sight and use it. By letting nearby enemies know you've ulted, they can simply hug their tower for the duration or receive a gank from their jungler.

EXAMPLE: In the team fights, especially for yolo Q, getting your team to react at the same time you ULT won't always be easy. If your team is slow to engage, the enemy team can retreat or hug towers to waste my ULT, because they've been alerted to me being near.

These are just two simple situations, but the amount of counter play is already high. Right now his burst is the only reason he's viable, because you can 100-0 or at least make them (ADC or APC) back out of the fight. That's saying oracles, pinks, wards, summoner spells such as barrier and heal, and simple kiting fail for their team to name a few counters already.

Rengar is a high risk, and high reward champion. If you don't snowball or dominate early in lane, chances are you'll lose lane in the mid levels. If you don't have items you can't use that insane burst. If Rengar can't burst and has even more counter play added against him, I don't see him being viable anymore.

I wish you the best of luck in recreating this champion, but I hope you don't make him useless.

@Scarizard
@Rengar

New Idea:.... One of his main problems is being kited after his ultimate is used, if one of his abilities allowed him to leap to the opposing enemy without the brush, this ability would need a cooldown of course, it would help solve the fact he isn't as bursty and making him more viable without his ultimate.


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NA Darklarik

Senior Member

07-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
I dig VO as our solution, but a couple of reservations about Global VO -

1. The effect isn't global. TF reveals Globally, Nocturne removes sight Globally, but Rengar's effect does not have bearing on the entire map.

2. (and the one i personally think is a bigger deal) - Nocturne and TF put quite a bit of pressure on the map over the duration of their effects, specifically to your opponents. It's fine for toplane to be scared for ~4s during Paranoia when in reality he's ganking bottom, but is it okay for the entire map to want to change their behaviour/undergo stress for 12 seconds? 10? Can we make Rengar's ult last a satisfying or even appropriate length if everyone on the map is affected the whole time?

3. Can't guarantee that all players will be notified/notice, as not everyone plays with sound on - but an icon or text warning is unmistakable.
s.

He also gives his team vision of your team while he's doing it...so it's not like Rengar just sits there useless. It's an incredibly warping (yet satisfying) ultimate and i'm trying to maintain the feel and strength of it as Rengar's best hunting tool without crippling its effectiveness. So far, the warning seems the best way to accomplish both, and i'm always attempting to tune it where it'll be fair for both sides.
2 concerns if you could Scarizard:

1. You said Rengar's ult would be looking at a lower cooldown. Since its semi-global, has this decision be reverted :/ ?

2. The mov speed scaling you posted: 10-50%, can you explain why its so, radical from one lv to another? I know the numbers will likely change but it dosent seem to me 10% is much, but 50% just seems over the top.


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Koechophe

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Senior Member

07-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
I believe i mentioned it earlier, but currently it's sitting at 10/30/50% - previously the gaps were much closer. Build was Bonetooth, Mobility, Spirit Visage, Vamp scepter before they surrendered.

I typically don't like posting numbers because people will get attached to them, and we are always ready to buff/nerf/revert numbers and changes at a moment's notice if it's best for the character.

Currently, we're nixing the 'minitrophy' stacks on Bonetooth for neutral kills. Created a lot of weird incentives where sometimes farming your jungle would be the best course of action until you reached your next tier, which is unfair for laning rengar.

3 stack bonus was pretty strong actually, but want to try another version - i'm pretty bad at wording it, but the gist of it is something like 'Rengar gains x (flat) movement speed out of combat. This bonus is not removed while Rengar is in brush.' Idea being he's strong while setting up the gank and while fighting in brush, but not while fighting outside of it. Might not make a difference, but i know a lot of people were missing the Flat MS all of the time. I don't agree he should have it 'all of the time' but using that MS to set up ganks and chase folks is aligned with our goals for BTN.

(Should also mention that Q2 giving Ferocity gave him a lot of speed in the jungle, constantly resetting his Q2 to take down bigger monsters - was generally pretty smooth and i liked how it was playing out)
I worry that the whole "Q chain" idea will kill rengar. I'm sorry, that's putting it bluntly, but the only reason he's good now is because he can assassinate. From what you've told us, you're removing his only strength, and the only thing you've told us you added is movespeed to his ult, while removing his element of surprise. Basically, from what you've told us, he does more damage, but it takes a lot longer to do. But in his kit, he doesn't HAVE longer to do it. It's actually hard enough currently to do his burst, and it only takes a second or two. You need to give us SOME assurance that these are actually buffs and not just nerfs to remove a playstyle you don't like, other than "I like him". I don't understand how he's still an assassin, because you've removed his burst. I don't understand how these are buffs, because you're removing his stealth and his ability to kill people, replacing it with more damage over a long period of time. That makes no sense with a squishy, low mobility champion with low cc.

The whole point of savagry is NOT it's attack speed buff. The attack speed buff feels terrible because the cast time of the spell takes most of it up. Having uber high attack speed isn't really that great, because it requires 100% stick, which rengar can't do. The attack speed is only really used in tower pushing, which just forces rengar back into split pushing.


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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

07-29-2013
42 of 81 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crüniac View Post
@Scarizard

Can you please tell us what plans, if any, exist for Battle Roar? I know people have suggested giving it AA reduction, attack speed reduction, fear, short stealth, tenacity bonus/cc removal. Just want to know what of those look like they could work, or what you guys have come up with on your own.
I've reverted Battle Roar to Armor/Mr for the time being. I completely acknowledge that the community doesn't care about its durability function and feedback has been overwhelming that it should likely be a selfish offensive buff or a debuff to enemies - this is still on the table, but it isn't altogether clear what that mechanic should be that takes it place. I would love to ship Rengar changes with a new Battle Roar mechanic, but it isn't 100% necessary that it occurs.

I consider Battle Roar WIP and plan to nix the mechanic if anything else arises that makes more sense, especially if it can align with what the community wants from the ability. Generally against Tenacity/Cleanse, would rather have it be conditional based on the champion/number of champions hit. CC is probably not going to happen. Self-empowering beastman yell or demoralizing shout type things are what i'm lookin' at, tho.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
I do have a question for you Scarizard: How defense-tilted will Rengar have to build? A hunter with a very strong thematic focus of attacking feels very wrong built tanky. I want to build super stabby and a visage rush makes me concerned ;_;
I built Visage that game simply due to BTN's AD/Bonuses putting me ahead of the curve, and wanting to itemize Tankier (As a jungler) to fit my team's needs. We had a Kha'Zix, Ezreal, Xerath and Nami - so if i didn't get big, no one would. Damage items are still totally good to go on Knifecat, and his role will still be as a damage dealer - but i'd note that Only Rengar's core build on Live always has a Spirit Visage in it due to W2 Synergy and CDR. As it's changed/buffed for 3.10 (with the inclusion of Spectre's Cowl), it felt like a nartual buy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NA Darklarik View Post
Well, i just hope you dont tune down the AD Too much on this. One of the few reasons many players get this item is its cost efficient ad stats, especially for top lane.

2 other concerns, if you could spare the time please!

1. Will the 'mov speed in brush' be a BTN exclusive passive? Or is rengar gaining this as part of his kit? (please see if you can put it in the kit plz :3 )

2. Any word on E being a skillshot?
AD on BTN is actually buffed, simply due to the Recipe being Long Sword + Hunters + 100g - it kind of has to have 10 AD from the Sword alone.

1. Movespeed in brush or whatever the mechanic shakes out to be will be a BTN Exclusive passive, though it's intended to be the first tier one and therefore easily obtained, as you'll be utilizing it to get even more trophies.

2. E being a skillshot is largely benched. It's not clear what the actual gains of it would be, and melee skillshots (Kha'Zix, Skarner, Shyvana) are generally not fun/awkward to use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NA Darklarik View Post
2 concerns if you could Scarizard:

1. You said Rengar's ult would be looking at a lower cooldown. Since its semi-global, has this decision be reverted :/ ?

2. The mov speed scaling you posted: 10-50%, can you explain why its so, radical from one lv to another? I know the numbers will likely change but it dosent seem to me 10% is much, but 50% just seems over the top.
More likely that the Cooldown will stay high, but then get lower. In a perfect world where we're getting the gameplay/counterplay we want, Rengar having access to this tool often wouldn't be a big issue. This is closely tied to your 2nd point about the disparate MS%'s as well - Rengar's Thrill of the Hunt is a super game-warping ultimate, and at its highest strength at Rank 1 where other lanes have less access to Pink Wards/Oracles (the effectiveness of these tools to put the brakes on a Rengar gank is already dubious as best), and so we like to limit it so lanes aren't under constant pressure. Destiny, Stand Aside, Paranoia, and Agony's Embrace as well as many other early game ultimates have this type of scaling to avoid insane snowballing and frustration in the beginning stages.

Similarly, as a game progresses we can jack up the power in the ultimates, because mapwide movement isn't contained simply to regular lanes - so Rengar can stabrocket his way across the entire rift.


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Crüniac

Junior Member

07-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koechophe View Post
I worry that the whole "Q chain" idea will kill rengar. I'm sorry, that's putting it bluntly, but the only reason he's good now is because he can assassinate. From what you've told us, you're removing his only strength, and the only thing you've told us you added is movespeed to his ult, while removing his element of surprise. Basically, from what you've told us, he does more damage, but it takes a lot longer to do. But in his kit, he doesn't HAVE longer to do it. It's actually hard enough currently to do his burst, and it only takes a second or two. You need to give us SOME assurance that these are actually buffs and not just nerfs to remove a playstyle you don't like, other than "I like him". I don't understand how he's still an assassin, because you've removed his burst. I don't understand how these are buffs, because you're removing his stealth and his ability to kill people, replacing it with more damage over a long period of time. That makes no sense with a squishy, low mobility champion with low cc.

The whole point of savagry is NOT it's attack speed buff. The attack speed buff feels terrible because the cast time of the spell takes most of it up. Having uber high attack speed isn't really that great, because it requires 100% stick, which rengar can't do. The attack speed is only really used in tower pushing, which just forces rengar back into split pushing.
You are correct in saying that high attack speed requires 100% stick. I had a funny idea that I don't think would be easy to implement, but what if maybe as the 14th stack of BTN or something, Rengar could AA while moving? Probably just make him really op, but if would solve his massive kiting problem. On the other hand it would look really weird if he was chasing someone he was faster than (it'd just look like he was humping them). You could however make it so he purposefully matches their speed if he's within AA range as long as he's faster.


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LastEscapist

Senior Member

07-29-2013

Scar, Scar. You're terrible, I hope you get fired

For True Karma


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The Italian Ice

Senior Member

07-29-2013

The VO ultimate does sound amazing, however there is one thing that seems sketchy. The fact that only the people around him will know he's invisible seems odd, it suffers the same problem that Blood Scent does, wherein a champ that is supposed to take you by surprise and gank you (Junglers) is letting the enemy know exactly where he is. If it were a global VO (Or Icon, for that matter), then it would be more difficult to pinpoint his position, but at the same time informing everyone that he is using his ult and is ready to strike (ala Twisted Fate), and therefore prepare accordingly.

Although, this is just what I'm seeing, I might be completely wrong!


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lDanthera

Junior Member

07-29-2013

Scarizard or Wav3,what are your opinions about Rengar getting vision over walls with his leap radius,as a BTN reward?It adds so much gameplay for rengar overall,as a scape/chase mechanism to leap in the neutral monsters and as a nice tool for counter jungling.


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Koechophe

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-29-2013

I can't help but worry that his ult is going to come off as a worse version of twisted fate's. I also can't help but worry that you're just trying to appease us. You SAY you're preserving assassin gameplay, but removing burst in order to add more sustained damage doesn't match that story at all. As I've already said, adding attack speed to Q and removing base damage is a very bad idea. The attack speed is highly wasted by the terrible animation of his Q, and massive attack speed requires 100% stick, which rengar doesn't have. Maybe buffing his battle roar so that it grants movespeed on hit would help alleviate this. But either way, these changes for the most part look like they're not only killing what makes rengar good (his burst) but forcing him into a bruiser/split pusher champion, which no one wants. This rework feels like you guys trying to remove a playstyle without actually preserving what's good about it.


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Furi Kuri

Member

07-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastEscapist View Post
Scar, Scar. You're terrible, I hope you get fired

For True Karma
I agree his job is to balance and hes ass at it. Q is getting burst nerfed, R is useless. BTN is useless.

He claims R will have more movement speed, but the new lvl 1 R gives only 10% ms rather than the old 20%

I've seen monkeys that can balance better than him.