A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Darklightning

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Senior Member

07-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
Additionally, due to this triple ferocity gain on Empowered Savagery, I had to tune some of his other numbers around with Battle Roar and Bola Strike. These numbers are still very subject to change but I want to let you guys know that they will definitely change to reflect this system. Regarding my questions on Bola Strike last post: it feels like it will still remain a targeted ability for now.

That being said, some ideas surrounding Bone Tooth Necklace giving team utility on empowered abilities or team utility in general sound interesting since your team helps you stack it anyways. Now instead of being a solo hunter your team can also be part of the hunting pack ?

Anyways, awesome ideas guys, keep them coming! Remember things are still subject to change.
Thanks for leaving Bola Strike targeted! Landing it from a jump would have been a nightmare. This is pulling me back towards the redesign!

I have reservations about team utility. These seem to always be less effective than individual buffs, but I'm sure you'll make it feel good.

So here is my biggest concern from a Rengar player perspective about the Bonetooth Necklace... the loss of stacks on death. The fact he gets one on assists helps on this since he is likely to build faster than lose. What this means though, is that I am less inclined to purchase it before level 8 (where it gains it's gold value in attack damage). You've helped this out a little by making it a multiple part item, but if I don't buy it before 8, the chances of me buying it go down. (A decent part of the game is over and I've already lost out on some of my more powerful gameplay time - the early game.) Perhaps this intentional, but it's what keeps me from buying it.


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QCGetBackToLife

Member

07-22-2013

As of now rengar's a risky pick to be honest , as you need to snowball your lane early on top to be able to carry your game and win, else you're screwed unless you start to play better and gank some other lanes for easy kills on squishies.

Rengar's a hunter, and a hunter isn't supposed to be a dueler type of champion. It's supposed to be an assassin like Kaz iz, Evelyn , Shaco or Talon. High risk but high reward champions to master.

They can easly get counterplayed and shutted down when you know how to play them , you just need to prevent his early fort pot kill and make him waste it , and already half of the job's done on making him useless a bit, depending on who's playing the champion. All that massive rant about rengar being too ''bursty'' or too ''risky'' is just too much, and honnestly, i rate it as the same kind of hate as kassadin has, and kassadin's fine and can be countered.

So why rework rengar? He's fine as he is, he was too strong when he was a dueler if you ask me, especially with the % of missing health heal back then. Leave Rengar to being his true self. A hunter.


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Tubyas

Junior Member

07-22-2013

If u feel that the base damage of his Q is too much maybe move some of that damage to his passive. If he is unseen should he be able to go all out and do some extra damage since he has the element of surprise? Just an idea.


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rathy Aro

Senior Member

07-22-2013

Here's my question about the proposed Rengar: Why wouldn't you pick him?

I wonder, because pre-nerfs this is the exact problem I had with Rengar, that all but forced me to main him. He was a sustainy, fast clearing, excellent ganker, who could snowball, and had a relevant role in teamfights. Since you guys are buffing him so he can survive the jungle and buffing his sustained damage, I imagine he will be even safer and faster than before, which to me phases out a lot of fast junglers who have real weaknesses. There are really good reasons not to pick Udyr, Mundo, and Shyvana, but they have their niche regardless. Then you have other assassin type junglers who probably won't be as safe or as fast as Rengar like Diana, Nocturne, and Khazix. Champions that excel at teamfighting like Amumu, Seju, and Zac are still good picks, but there's a whole lot of champs that I just can't reasonably pick if Rengar is how I imagine he will be.

I haven't played this new Rengar so I could be completely wrong, so please point out the weaknesses to me.


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Olodumare

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Member

07-22-2013

I just wish this type of discussion went on before the khaz changes instead of just tearing apart his W.


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Saiga420

Junior Member

07-22-2013

Hey, first post here, I'm typically not a "forum-goer" but I spotted this thread on RoG and seeing as Rengar has been one of my favorite champs since his release (I'm a huge fan of the Predator films so his whole theme really got to me) so I figured I would drop in my two cents.

All in all I love the direction you're taking him in, I always preferred jungle Rengar over top, until he got nerfed to the point that he just wasnt worth it there, so to see him get love for that role makes me very happy.

All in all I have one very small concern though (and I apologize if someone else has already brought this up, I dont want to wade through a 146 page thread to check :P):

If you're going to make all of Rengar's Empowered abilities scale with level, does that not threaten to remove his scaling from his item builds? giving him the ability to just build pure tank while still dealing very large amounts of damage just by getting CDR? (especially with the new "spammy" Q) I know it might be unwarranted, but it just reminds me too much of that period before Rengar got his % health heal taken away and people were just stacking large amounts of health and resistances and turning into an unkillable siege tank pushing top non stop.

I understand some champions can get away with pure tank = damage builds without feeling too overbearing, but Rengar has a reputation now with those who've played against him when he was REALLY broken, and I feel like something like that would be enough to frustrate his opponents and cause another wave of "OMG Rengar even wurse than b4, Riot u suck! nerf NERF NERF"

Now I know that you guys don't really listen to unwarranted QQ'ing like that, but it's certainly frustrating to deal with from a player perspective as well (while I as well hate them deeply, I'm sure some Teemo/Singed players can appreciate what I mean). And even if the QQ'ing is unfounded, if enough people do it, I know you guys will be forced to answer it in some way or another.

I'm just really amped to play with new Rengar and I would hate to seem him get nerfed two weeks after he relaunches because of baddies b****ing because they don't like it when the mean ol kitty mounts them on his wall a few too many times.

tl;dr - I know Rengar isn't supposed to be an assassin, but do you think in the direction you're taking him in, he wont get too much benefit from building overly tanky? Don't get me wrong, I like me some bruisers, but a champ that builds full tank and still hits like a truck WILL frustrate his opponents quite a bit... Sej, Voli, etc get away with it because they're tanks/initiators and need to be as beefy as possible, but Rengar isn't (and really shouldn't be) either of those things.

This is all considering I've seen no numbers for his new kit yet though, so I may just be wildly off base


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Amarth

Senior Member

07-22-2013

Honestly he could use a few more nerfs than this and still be fine. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something.


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Cliff Walrus

Senior Member

07-22-2013

Could you please do a summation post of the new kit and some ideas you like for BTN? Leaving the numbers out to avoid fixating on the wrong thing also please. The ideas are muddled from the OP saying "BUFF ALL THE SKILLS...except nerf Q dmg" to "Since empowered Savagery sucked we added a 2 times stacking rape buff, there might be some Attack Speed on it somewhere".

This kit really sounds like a pigeon hole to max Q, then W/E are kind of meh. What are the advantages to ranking up W and E if the damage scales with lvl? is the rank up only going to effect empowered W/E? If that's the case based on the Q-train deal it further pigeon holes the skill ranking since you'd be spamming Q until you decide to finish(kill or run) with an E and just walk away laughing from the slowed/dead target. What's the counterplay to this trade where Rengar leaps on you with 4 ferocity hits: Q, empQ, W, E, empQ and runs/leaps away? you'd still be slowed by E he'd have his tanky W up. With the stacking prey buff I'm concerned it will be less of a trade and more of a "leave now or die"

BTN:
It would be really cool if this could synergize with the marked target to let him leap without brush on marked targets at x stacks

give him a bleed on Savagery at X stacks on marked targets.

Maybe allow bola strike to "mark" instead of just savagery at X stacks.

How would you feel about spending some gold to make effects permanent? Like turning in the heads of your prey for bounty kind of thing (could be OP easily though).

You want to reward both Lanegar and Junglar only if they are performing and not force the item to be core, but also balance an unstoppable murder-machine who makes venturing out to do crazy things like secure red/blue in the jungle a terrible idea.

Last thing
Please don't forget about the Rengar/Kha quest. Predator should always have a good chance at murdering the filthy alien.


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Old Adam70

Member

07-22-2013

This may seem a tad bit radical and difficult to implement practically, but here's my idea for the BTN.

Considering you want it to be appealing to more people, but many people may play Rengar differently, why not have the BTN function in a "achievements" kind of way (especially considering we have no achievements section to LoL yet), more than it is currently. Consider any gaming platform, achievements are gained after doing very specific things.
Now imagine implementing the same thought-process but with a built-in achievement list for BTN.
Rengar could gain these achievements (which come with permanent boosts) by completing various achievements, which would be tailored to very specific playstyles. One such option would be, in the event of an AP Rengar, that he gains some buff to his roar after gaining a certain amount of stacks on the BTN and having higher than some designated amount of AP.
Maybe you rather face-stabby Rengar? You could give an achievement for high AD and a certain amount of stacks, or say after using empowered Q 800 times but the amount of times you use it is buffed by how many stacks you have on BTN (Q2 at 0 stacks only counts for 1, whereas Q2 at 12 stacks counts for 13). Say you're building lots of arpen? Could have an achievement for that. Say you do a ton of bush-jumps? Have an achievement for that.
You could toss in some really silly achievements, too.
Either way, like I said, I have no idea how practical this would be or how difficult to design, but it seems fun and interesting to me, as well as completing the goal of having BTN be useful for everyone and can be tailored to everyone's needs. They can be called trophies, for our prize game hunter Rengar who definitely likes his trophies.


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Labcown

Senior Member

07-22-2013

While a fan of the uniqueness of BTN, I never quite got why it was put into item form after the seemingly failure of Viktor's unique item, and wasn't just an innate feature of Rengar.

By making it a staple of EVERY Rengar, it doesn't hinder any game play styles because you're not forcing anyone to give up gold or an item slot for it, but are encouraging Hunter type game play because you do benefit from stacking it up.

Of course, if it was put into his passive, it wouldn't give stats, but it still could retain the cool unique buffs you were talking about, like the "+X movement will out of combat / double in bush"