@Riot - Jungling

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NinjaBeaver

Senior Member

11-27-2010

Over the past few weeks something has begun to bother me about jungling at high elo. Let me explain below...

By being able to see the enemy teams jungler's CS (Creep Score), you can fairly accurately determine exactly where he is +/- 3-5 seconds, and what camps he has done. This allows your team to do ganks at red/blue without clairvo/a ward. I jungle or have jungled the following champions a /lot/ - Shaco, Warwick, Rammus, Olaf, Nunu, Amumu. While a few of these can start wherever, a few are limited to one camp (read Amumu - blue golem for perma-W and E spam in subsequent camps).

Let me give you an example:
The enemy team has Warwick...Warwick can start pretty much anywhere he pleases, if he is paranoid about being caught at level 1. At 2:10 you see his CS is 2, and doesn't move for 5-10+ seconds, you have GOOD reason to believe he is at the small golems by red, and he is about to do red. Say you are shaco and you started at blue, at this time you can head directly for the enemy teams red and more often than not catch the Warwick there. This was an exact scenario from a ranked game where I was Warwick and the enemy teams Shaco was AllisterAP. He knew how to count my CS and predict where I was most likely to be.

A counterpoint to the statement above may be, "OMG WARD YOU NOOB"...Well, Shaco, for one, can deceive over the dragon wall (he was purple team) and be at my red in a matter of seconds. Rammus could powerball from 2 different routes and even if I had warded 1, there is a 50% chance that I wouldn't see him, or if I did i wouldn't be able to get away without boots.

If you watch high elo streams you will see the lanes constantly checking the enemy junglers CS. As soon as it hits 15 (or say you're top lane blue side and it goes 2 -> 5 : the jungler clearly just got red), you immediately back off. I don't see how this is fair to the jungler. We can't see what items the enemy team bought until you we get Line of Sight (LOS) on them, why can we see the CS? It doesn't make sense to me.

Last night I was playing a game against a friend in solo ranked and I was Warwick blue side he was Rammus purple side. We had clairvo but were having trouble locating him because his jungle was thrown off due to us stealing his red at 2:00. However, without any clairvo or wards on his team, he knew exactly where I was as Warwick and exactly WHEN I started red buff, and was able to powerball in and kill me before my teammates could even respond. He ended up dying to my teammates and gave them a fresh blue buff, but if it was for example Shaco or someone with flash, it would have been a different story.

Another example:
You are purple team, enemy team is blue. Your junglers cs reads 2 -> 5 -> 9...That means he went 2 golems, red, wraiths. Top lane blue can read this and overextend without fear of a gank because the jungler is obviously heading towards bottom lane.

Summary / TLDR:

1) Being able to see an enemy junglers CS constantly update without obtaining Line of Sight doesn't make sense.
2) This is potentially game breaking at high elo where people have jungle times down to an art.
3) Please make it so enemy team CS only updates upon obtaining LOS. Jungling is already inherently dangerous - please make it fair.

Can we please get Riots input on this? Is this recognized as being fair/unfair?

Edit: Since i'm getting downvotes and no responses, I'm 1950 right now in solo queue and main junglers. I think I know a little bit about this subject.

Edit 2:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epok2 View Post
I don't agree. The reason is pretty simple, junglers are already VERY powerful by being able to gank, replace someone that needs to blue pill, protects the buffs and feed the buffs to the ones who need it more (like your carry). There are already absolutely no reason not to have a jungler if you wanna win a game, and it's kind of lame honestly. Junglers should be an additional strategy with some good trade offs which isn't the case currently. So I'm not sure junglers need any buffs. By the way with amumu you can perfectly start at the two golems or at wraiths, I'm surprised that as a 1950 elo guy you use this argument to support your view.
I'd like to address this, which many people have brought up.

Several high elo people have also come to me saying that they were surprised I was "asking for buffs" for junglers. That is not what I am asking for. I actually believe that the popular junglers ARE incredibly powerful, and are well balanced. (Keep in mind here I am talking before 20 minutes, when laning is still in effect.) At mid elo, this change wouldn't change a thing the majority of the time, as said by the people in that elo posting in this thread.

However, at high elo, it would make a difference. Lets consider a situation where the enemy team has Shaco as their jungler, and lets pretend that this CS change already went into effect. That means you have no idea whatsoever where he is. How are you to avoid getting ganked? Oh let me list the ways...

Ward the bushes
Get clairvo
Allow your lane to be pushed and learn to last hit ---------- But NinjaBeaver, our bottom lane is Janna Zilean, and we have to spam Tornado / Time bomb to CS. Our lane is super pushed and we keep getting ganked! What do we do? The answer is simple - stop being bad, and learn how to lane effectively, and when all else fails, get flash and ffffffffffffff (I kid)

But seriously, I can't remember the last time I was ganked by a jungler IN LANE early game when I had clairvo on my team and wasn't overextending. Currently people at high elo are allowed to play wrecklessly and overly aggressive because they are able to track junglers by their CS. I rememeber when I was mid-elo I would rage everytime i saw Shaco on the other team because OMG HE IS OP. Once i learned to not overextend, get clairvo (which i almost always do if i'm not jungling or playing a carry), and ward, I stopped getting ganked by him.

More often than not Shaco would come, sit in the bush I had my ward in for 15-20s, then leave when he saw I backed off. I spent 90g, I prevented him from getting 300g (+ more from assists to his teammates), made him waste time (which equates into exp and gold), and saved myself exp and gold that I would have lost while dead. Seems like an even trade, right?

When I play junglers at high elo, I don't even try to gank most of the time, because more often than not it results in a failure because people know where you are. Instead I rush my way to 6 and try to control dragon (A whole other subject in itself).

My point is: Learn to not get ganked, and stop viewing this as "Jungle Buffs", and start viewing it as fixing a broken and senseless mechanic.


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Letkhar

Senior Member

11-27-2010

I agree.


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Zinthros

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Recruiter

11-27-2010

Agreed.


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The Drippy Sink

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Senior Member

11-27-2010

OP is brilliant. Stop downvoting, and Riot, hear him out!


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Necrotroph

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Senior Member

11-27-2010

I just starting jungling and i feel this could help out. At my elo it doesnt much matter since no one checks that most of the time but it just seems fair.


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SmokingJoeNL

Senior Member

11-27-2010

I posted about this like 3 weeks ago. My idea was randomizing camps and buffs, but that got sand in people's ******s for some reason.


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NinjaBeaver

Senior Member

11-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokingJoeNL View Post
I posted about this like 3 weeks ago. My idea was randomizing camps and buffs, but that got sand in people's ******s for some reason.
That would make jungling unfair because one side would get a random advantage over the other, with no skill involved because of unpredictable spawns.

My solution is simple and effective.


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NinjaBeaver

Senior Member

11-27-2010

Going to keep randomly bumping until I get a red response.


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Crowlz

Senior Member

11-27-2010

Agreed.


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Frag Pulf

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Senior Member

11-27-2010

Bump for agreeing.


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