Let's talk about Yorick

First Riot Post
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armads12

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
It seems like this is the major point of contention:

Is Yorick a melee fighter or a minion commander

Players who want a necromancer style of play want more ghoul commands.
Players who want a strong melee fighter want to ignore the ghouls.

Of these two categories, which one does League need more? Which one is the best "fit" for Yorick? I'll be discussing this more with coworkers tomorrow as well.
League definitely needs a commander of the dead, but as Yorick's theme is now he fits a style of getting down and dirty alongside his minions.


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Whisla

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
It seems like this is the major point of contention:

Is Yorick a melee fighter or a minion commander

Players who want a necromancer style of play want more ghoul commands.
Players who want a strong melee fighter want to ignore the ghouls.

Of these two categories, which one does League need more? Which one is the best "fit" for Yorick? I'll be discussing this more with coworkers tomorrow as well.
Let me start by saying the new kit looked awesome. I would only change his E from being a mark to just forcing the ghouls to attack a target and healing yorick for the dmg they deal. We have enough mark based champs as it is. And i dont think you should have to choose between bruiser or ghoul commands. You can make him a strong melee fighter through the use of the ghouls kinda how you did in the most recent kit.

edit: thinking about this, if you made the passive alittle more important it would force yorick player to not risk thier ghouls with the E as often so they could keep being that tanky figher when they needed it and still be a commander of the dead.


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Warrikon

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Why are you so intent on giving yorick that sustain? You know it can only lead to one eventual fate.

Giving a melee bruiser a heal is very generic in the game, it gives no play style, it gives no incentive for the enemy to counter, its just... freaking annoying. Even worse, this sounds like you are just basically giving yorick even better sustain than before.

please, just let it go. let, the sustain, go.


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

07-01-2013
41 of 123 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by BehemothHeek View Post
@ Xelnath Can you keep the 4 omens as the names of the Yorick's abilties. This may sound a bit strange, but those names have always been one of my favorite parts of Yorick. They really add to his theme.

Omen of war.
Omen of pestilence.
Omen of famine.
Omen of death.


It gives me shivers just thinking about how badass they are.

For now, let's focus on the communication of mechanics. I like the theming too, but it detracts too much from the discussion to focus on minor details right now.


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Mirage Night

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Great, then let's find a way to making playing Yorick *and* playing against Yorick fun.
I want to keep his sustainable moveable wallness.


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Walrusaur

Junior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
It seems like this is the major point of contention:

Is Yorick a melee fighter or a minion commander

Players who want a necromancer style of play want more ghoul commands.
Players who want a strong melee fighter want to ignore the ghouls.

Of these two categories, which one does League need more? Which one is the best "fit" for Yorick? I'll be discussing this more with coworkers tomorrow as well.
Which one does league need more? A commander. There isn't really anyone that fits that role right now.

Which one fits Yorick? Melee fighter, without a doubt. I can see that that is likely not how he was conceived at first. But that is what he is, and always has been since i started playing the game.

Turning him into a commander/caster type would feel like a totally different champion.

He's not Hades. He's a dude with a shovel.


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Critkeeper

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
It seems like this is the major point of contention:

Is Yorick a melee fighter or a minion commander

Players who want a necromancer style of play want more ghoul commands.
Players who want a strong melee fighter want to ignore the ghouls.

Of these two categories, which one does League need more? Which one is the best "fit" for Yorick? I'll be discussing this more with coworkers tomorrow as well.
How about both at the same time?

I mean, fight WITH the ghouls, rather than command or ignore them.


Imagine if he casted tombstones instead of ghouls. Tombstones charge when something near them dies, for example a minion wave or a champion. As the tomstone charges it gains mana, which Yorick can expend by commanding the tombstone to raise a ghoul. The ghouls have the same AI as malzahar's voidling, last for a good 20 seconds and become stronger as time passes, but they will not leave sight of the tombstone, and will return to the tombstone if they do lose sight.

Each of yorick's 3 basic spells will raise a particular type of ghoul when cast on a tombstone.

When not cast on a tombstone, the spells have a basic functionality including giving a special command to ghouls of the corresponding type. That special command involves the ghoul using some sort of ghoul ability, like a ranged skillshot (think zed's shadow).


Tombstones cannot be killed but they can be damaged, and cannot be repaired (they must be recast, with a long cooldown). As a tombstone is damaged, any ghoul under control of the tomstone has proportionally reduced effectiveness, down to 30% at max damage. Two fifths of the damage dealt to the tombstone (which has no resists) is also is dealt to Yorick.

The way to fight yorick would be to pick openings in which to damage the tombstone. You aren't so much fighting yorick as you are fighting the tombstone. This gives yorick players the sensation that they are fighting with the ghouls, with a common cause: to protect the tombstone.


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Mindworm Jim

Senior Member

07-01-2013

I also find the last presented kit idea a bit off.

The number of ghouls he has doesn't seem to mean much. They move as a pack. Their only impact on his skills is slightly increasing the area they affect (or so it seems to me, I could be misunderstanding the kit). Opponents will only care about ghouls as a binary status. Either Yorick has ghouls, or he doesn't.

I do like the passive though. I like the idea of using ghouls as either bodyguard (and keeping them safe) or as a hunting pack (and risking them).

I think the kit would be more interesting if Yorick could expend his ghouls in some way through his skills. For example, instead of Explosive Gas exploding around your ghouls, you could cast it on a ghoul, causing it to explode and enhance the effect of the spell. Hungering Rush could send one ghoul charging forward and then have it die at the end of the range. This way Yorick wants to consider when to use his ghouls and where. Does he send his entire forward to harass? Does he hold on to them to enhance his abilities? Can he all-in that Teemo with only one ghoul or does he want to wait for a second one? Is Teemo's harass killing off the ghouls just harass or is he preparing for a jungler gank?


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Clockmaker

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
It seems like this is the major point of contention:

Is Yorick a melee fighter or a minion commander

Players who want a necromancer style of play want more ghoul commands.
Players who want a strong melee fighter want to ignore the ghouls.

Of these two categories, which one does League need more? Which one is the best "fit" for Yorick? I'll be discussing this more with coworkers tomorrow as well.
yorick should be a necromancery style of play. when he was released i bought him for his ghouls. sure he needed some buffs on release but at least he had a unique kit: one that created minions to help you on the battlefield. His lore already sets him up with the fact that he messes with other dead people (ghouls).

if i wanted to play a strong melee fighter, well i certainly wouldn't pick yorick (even though atm he is strong). there's enough melee fighters in the game already, and pulling yorick away from his ghouls (which was his original selling point) is just cruel and removing an entire playstyle from the game (commanding other units than just yourself). As i've said before, if i wanted to play a strong melee fighter i would pick someone like Aatrox/akali/darius/jax etc.


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Mokkun

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Because the question of whether he is thematically a caster necromancer, or a shovel guy keeps coming up...

To me, Yorick is a gravedigger with a shovel. He is too beefy as a model, and to shovel wielding to be any version of your stand in the back, caster champion. If league needs less bruisers, just keep creating non-bruisers. Yorick is front liner himself thematically to me.

I still don't like the massive swarm army of the dead (WoW DK) ult concept. While I see him as a pet user, I don't see him as an army commander. I'd rather see his ult do something with what ghouls he has, or needs to yet summon, than to swarm people. I think the swarm mechanic would better be utilized on a new champion, than on Yorick.