Let's talk about Yorick

First Riot Post
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Vandite

Senior Member

06-30-2013

i really like the second kits ultimate, his current ult doesn't feel good but the way the second one sounds makes it seem like YOU WILL REMEMBER YORICK MORI. and having that sounds really cool, imagine checking a bush and a stream on ghouls swarm you. man the terror


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Elewd

Senior Member

06-30-2013

so what i've gathered from this thread is that a majority of players want Yoricks Q to be a ranged skillshot type of nuke thing that would be a ghoul going out to attack an area.

:3.

Im excited for some kit updates for Yorick since he looks like a badass but he just isnt fun to play because it feels like when you pick him, you won the lane and you dont feel as "good" about it because he is like a free win in lane.


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magik8ball

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Which specific experience is that?
  • The ability to be losing a battle, duck into a bush to force a melee fight, drop ult and all ghouls, and proceed to mug my opponent for his bounty money.
  • The ability to Q onto a tank, dive into the enemy team after the ADC/other squishies, and force them away from the fight/force a tank peel from my scary shovel.
  • Duking it out with someone, dying off, and then resurrecting to take them down with me.
  • Being a melee champ, but barely keeping the powerful bruiser off of my tower with my ranged ghouls, surviving just long enough that I can get melee power of my own.
  • Slowing and ripping into anyone that tries to dive past me after my ADC/squishies.

These are my game-changing moments. I'm only looking at it from a Yorick perspective - I can't imagine any of these are fun for my opponents, but they're certainly fun for me. The question is which ones, and for how many of these does the unfun for them outweigh the fun for me?


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Arance

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I see one of two models working cleanly with multiple pets:

A) I am the tank, protecting my pets as they do ranged damage from behind me.
B) I am the caster, my pets are my frontline and they provide space and safety for me.

The fundamental problem with "I am melee and my pets are melee" is the Elise problem. Nobody appreciates her spiderling. Yet they are like 40% of her melee damage.

When you're in melee with her, you want to be meleeing her. You don't want to be dealing with garbo spiders. When you're at ranged, her spiders are no threat and are not worth harassing down.

Let's not repeat that mistake. Ghouls should be important, relevant to kill and a meaningful part of Yorick's gameplay. Yorick should feel the pain when they are missing, but not feel hopeless that he will never get them back.
Both A and B destroy Yorick as he currently is though. He's a beefy shovel wielding bruiser that leads a zombie army.

You pick A, then Yorick may be the same himself but his zombie army is gone and instead of a necromancer he'll just feel like a tank with turrets. I don't see how you can preserve his current fantasy this way.

You pick B, then Yorick as we know him is gone. He'd still be a great necromancer with a zombie army, but now he's not a bruiser. He'd need a greater art overhaul than any other champion has needed yet.

Personally, out of those 2, I'd pick B every time because tanks bore me and I want a necromancer with a zombie army. But either choice is going to prove extremely problematic...


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Krimson62

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
There's some good ideas here. Major takeaways are as follows:

1) Ghouls are only a resource. They are just spell effects here. This can work, but it feels like a lost opportunity for a counterplay unit.
2) Your general ability choices were pretty good. I liked the core ideas. (Ghouls are basically a visible cooldown reset)
3) Your omens are overdesigned, with too many different stances. Aatrox has two stances and he's still pretty hard to use, when that's most of what you have to do with him. 4 stances is excessive. What you do in those stances is pretty good though. (Speed up/slow down/bonus damage, etc) However, one is likely to be dominant and the rest ignored.
4) The ultimate is a better version of R#2 for a fighter. Props there!

Overall, you have some good logic, solid writing skills, a nice mixture of interesting abilities and a clear direction. You should keep doing stuff like this. I can see you turning this into a career in the future.
just out of curiosity instead of making ghouls resources, what if he could only get ghouls from last hitting minions with something like a nasus Q? So he strikes them, then can unbury them


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Grab my Lemons

Senior Member

06-30-2013

I know I've posted in this thread earlier, but I just wanted to add; what archetype needs to be filled? What character role is lacking from the game, thematically or mechanically? When you add Yorick to the equation, you're narrowing it down to a couple things - a summoning character, a death magic user, a spell casting bruiser. And of course, you want the character in question to be unique. The proposed kits turn Yorick into all of these things, keeping up with all the themes that are theoretically missing from the game. In my opinion, Xelnath and the other Riot staff are close to achieving this, while alleviating potential problems - deviating too far from the original character, dealing with the aforementioned issues that summonable ghouls come with, etc.


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NotBuzzJack

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
X... Y.... Z... ?

I see what you did there.
That is humorously coincidental.


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Whisla

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
That's true, we could make dealing with his ghouls trivial. Similarly, there's a reasonable arguement to be made for a character who is focused more about propping up his team and less about personal glory.

However, I don't feel that's aligned with the vision players imagine when they see Yorick for the first time.
I disagree. When i saw yorick for the first time i wa slike **** this guy just brings everything back from the grave then beats people with a shovel, thats awesome.

Honestly I dont want yorick to be reworked. Maybe work alittle more on his ghouls if you really feel that is the problem, but from everything youve been saying it just sounds like your about to turn him into somthing Yorick players dont want. I really feel though Yorick isnt the problem your pushing at, his ghouls arent much differant from zyras plants or elises spiders.

Has much as Riot frowns on winning at champ select thats what its being built into. Would you send a vayne to fight a yorick top? or even a wu? No you wouldnt they are just two differant classes of Champ. So same should be applied when fighting against said champs. Yorick is a sustain bruiser that can be beat easily when focused or burst down. So if you want to counter him play someone that can fill those roles.

If you believe his sustain is too much early maybe tone back the initial numbers early and let him scale more. If he feels like to much of a brick wall, well hate to say it but tanks rule when built. Yorick probably doesnt need a full on rework, just some touch ups.


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

06-30-2013
32 of 123 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by magik8ball View Post
  • The ability to be losing a battle, duck into a bush to force a melee fight, drop ult and all ghouls, and proceed to mug my opponent for his bounty money.
  • The ability to Q onto a tank, dive into the enemy team after the ADC/other squishies, and force them away from the fight/force a tank peel from my scary shovel.
  • Duking it out with someone, dying off, and then resurrecting to take them down with me.
  • Being a melee champ, but barely keeping the powerful bruiser off of my tower with my ranged ghouls, surviving just long enough that I can get melee power of my own.
  • Slowing and ripping into anyone that tries to dive past me after my ADC/squishies.

These are my game-changing moments. I'm only looking at it from a Yorick perspective - I can't imagine any of these are fun for my opponents, but they're certainly fun for me. The question is which ones, and for how many of these does the unfun for them outweigh the fun for me?
Okay, great! This helps me understand the high moments specific to Yorick better than any other post so far. To summarize:

1) Ambushing with ghouls + ult is fun
2) Cutting through the enemy team via smart use of spells to reach the ADC
3) Revenge killing someone
4) Defending tower against the odds
5) Protecting your ADC with slows and ghouls.


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Sebastianthefrog

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Don't mean to drag things away from balance to much, and I do recognize that this is waaaaaay out of your jurisdiction to make any sort of meaningful comment on, but do you reckon we could see a release skin for these heavily reworked champs, or maybe a rework bundle weekend? Just an idea, might give the release of reworked champs a little more oomph.