Do you want this new version of Thornmail?

Yes. i like it a lot 7 50.00%
Sidelines 1 7.14%
No. 6 42.86%
Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

[Change Item] Thornmail - revison 2.0

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KingsRight

Senior Member

12-13-2009

=============== OLD Thornmail ===================

+70 Armor UNIQUE Passive: On being hit by standard attacks, returns 20% of damage taken as magic damage


=============== NEW Thornmail ==================


UNIQUE Passive: Blocks (25 + (3% x AP))% of physical damage 100% of the time and returns 100% of the damage that was blocked back as magical damage.
Reduces enemy lifesteal effects by 40%.





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It seems a lot people liked the idea of upgrading via AP from my other posts and many still were sidelines about whether to allow stacking. Also many didn't like how the current model becomes obsolete.
so i think this version is a good compromise that solves all those issues.

notice how unique this item is.
it dosent make use of armor stat, yet protects always as well early, mid and late game. also, by removing the armor element there is nothing restricting/reducing the return output
also it is upgradeable by AP to encourage mages more.

it even solves the lifesteal issue.

however, since it is improved much from old model and is related to lifesteal, the recipe cost should add in the Vampiric Scepter which is 450 more.


- example of AP usage; lets say you have 100 AP.
(3% x 100) = 3
25 + 3 = 28

so you would both block and return 28%

if you had 500 AP then it would be (500 x 3%) = 15

(25 + 15)% = 40%

so as you can see this AP wielding mage is protected more for going offensive with his spells.


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Krebb The Pestulent

Senior Member

12-14-2009

This would make the item desirable, but that's kind of an understatement.

I agree that melee heroes are getting too much defensively from their items then casters are, but to give a flat percentage of damage return is not the same as giving a flat percentage of damage increase.

Let me explain.

As the other team increases in defenses you must increase your damage and the way that you deal damage must remain effective.

This item makes it so that at least 20% of that champions own damage is being negated on you and returned to him.


I just don't think that a damage return that scales off the hard work of your enemies makes any sense. I mean, it sounds awesome and I would love to slap this on a caster or two, but it feels backwards.
I do really like the idea of innately reducing life-steal-healing effects of your attacker.


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KingsRight

Senior Member

12-14-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krebb The Pestulent View Post

I just don't think that a damage return that scales off the hard work of your enemies makes any sense. I mean, it sounds awesome and I would love to slap this on a caster or two, but it feels backwards.
well, i've done a LOT of thinking about balancing this out. as you can see i have had many other posts on this item. I have also helped try to fix blademail in dota.

So let me attempt to convince you that this is the way to go. You are worried about scale? Well, think of it this way:

You punch a wall... it hurts

You punch a wall harder.. it hurts more in proportion to how much you punched it.

you punch it with all your might, it scales and hurts your fist back by the same amount.

it resists you based off %'s. the more you give to it, the more it gives back.

But no matter how hard you punch you still get results.. the wall will eventually come down.

this way that i have come up with makes thornmail more true to being like a wall. and, naturally, if you are covered in the right material, it makes sense that it would be harder to "steal the life" from the object that is covered by that material. so i'm glad you agree with me that the lifesteal effects should be reduced. a lot of people from my other posts seemed to like that feature.

it also adds a whole new way of protecting you instead of always the same old "armor" and "magic resistance" stats, making it more intoxicating due to it's different nature, which equals more strategy in choosing your items.

everything in proportion. this way the faux-armor that it provides protects to scale as well, making this item far more sought after compared to it's old version due to it's nature of never becoming obsolete. example: DPS is tearing you apart with armor-penetration? Won't matter with thornmail as it doesn't deal with armor stat. problem solved.

Also, by doing this, since mages make really sucky fighters/dps this mail enables them to fight back in a different way since their attacks are ****. Once they throw out their nukes and it's all on cooldown and all they can do is run, they need this kind of support!


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Procylon

Member

12-14-2009

From that formula there it looks like you want it to cut out 25% of physical damage you would take?

Sure, return the damage, but a full 25% block would be ludicrously insane OP.

The leviathin snowball item gives 15% damage block after 20 stacks. You would be lucky to get a 5-10% physical block out of this item.


Maybe make that passive part of the item be one of those 10 second cooldown item effects.


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KingsRight

Senior Member

12-14-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Procylon View Post
From that formula there it looks like you want it to cut out 25% of physical damage you would take?

Sure, return the damage, but a full 25% block would be ludicrously insane OP.

The leviathin snowball item gives 15% damage block after 20 stacks. You would be lucky to get a 5-10% physical block out of this item.


Maybe make that passive part of the item be one of those 10 second cooldown item effects.
i guess you dont want to see this item useful. shame. guarantee this wouldn't be op.

if someone is to crit you for 400, you still get 300. trust me, they will still kill you. and i'm sure you havn't gone over the math near as much as i have. i've been working on thornmail for over a month now, trying to figure out something that would make people "want it" without Op-ing it.


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Monnok

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Senior Member

12-14-2009

Real quick unorganized impression:

This one item as proposed seems a little OP still, given that with base armor, most every champ has about 10-20% physical reduction as well, making 500 AP give the caster about 60% physical reduction, and thus a tank. Recipe may need to be much more expensive.

Yes, 500 AP is a lot for most casters to get in 35-45 minutes, so that 15% isnt very likely, but with that much AP, thier spells would DESTROY physical carries who will not be carrying enough MR to balance this. Also, it not being based on the armor stat means it cannot be countered. Remember, casters are supposed to be fragile, but hit hard.

I think the lifesteal effect makes it even worse. If you absolutely feel you need it, maybe either have it combine out of Executioners Calling, or reduce the 40% to maybe 15%. A pittance, but lifesteal isnt all that game-changing, especially if said physical champ is doing 60% less damage on you already.

Even then, one of the main reasons I dont get Thornmail in it's current/future incarnation is that it pulls tower agro.

Just giving feedback.


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Krebb The Pestulent

Senior Member

12-15-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingsRight View Post
well, i've done a LOT of thinking about balancing this out. as you can see i have had many other posts on this item. I have also helped try to fix blademail in dota.

So let me attempt to convince you that this is the way to go. You are worried about scale? Well, think of it this way:

You punch a wall... it hurts

You punch a wall harder.. it hurts more in proportion to how much you punched it.

you punch it with all your might, it scales and hurts your fist back by the same amount.

it resists you based off %'s. the more you give to it, the more it gives back.

But no matter how hard you punch you still get results.. the wall will eventually come down.
props on the analogy btw; I liked it.

But I was saying that (to me) an item that scales based on the hard work of the opposing char is kind of backwards. Your idea and balancing appears solid as far as I can tell, I was just saying that based on all the other effects it would offer all you would be doing is adding this item right next to catalyst as an item to rush. Am I correct in assuming this works on minions as well?

Does the effect account for any additional damage that you are taking? (i.e. You have black cleaver stacks, an aegis is weakening you, corki true damage, etc.)

Also, is there an internal cooldown for this item? or is it reflecting damage at all times to anyone who physically attacks you?

just some questions that come up when I think about reactive damage return.


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killd0zer

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Senior Member

12-15-2009

...but why would you want to make an item, thats essentally a counter for melee dps, for casters? it doesnt fit them. so lets put an example... you get 25 base % return. you have 250 ap (im a little confused on how 3%*Ap works, i would think you meant that 3% of ap is added as a %) giving you i think 31% damage return. Now getting 3% per 100 ap is a little small (if you trying to cater to casters, try lowering it to 10% to start and add 7% give or take per 100 ap), but simply the idea that a dps character doing, oh lets say 500 dps, would then take 155 dps too, plus the caster would have their own boosted spell damage.


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Wu Thuong

Senior Member

12-15-2009

i really like your idea because i was also thinking about a way to change thornmail.

I considered 3 possibilities:

1. give it an active passive: Adds 50% damage return for 6 seconds (no visual effect)
2. Active passive: taunts all nearby enemies around you for 1.5 seconds (same range as alistars stun), which would turn the thornnail into a more utility-like item.
3. 20- 25% damage return plus lowering all healing effects of enemies attacking you by 50%

Yours is similar to my third possibility if i would add that ap upgradeable thingie


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Patyrn

Senior Member

12-16-2009

Quote:
This one item as proposed seems a little OP still, given that with base armor, most every champ has about 10-20% physical reduction as well, making 500 AP give the caster about 60% physical reduction, and thus a tank. Recipe may need to be much more expensive.
Nothing wrong with 60%. Wouldn't a frozen heart leave you with atleast that + the slow?


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