Magic Pen vs Ability Power

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kn0w

Junior Member

12-11-2009

Can anyone, that knows what they are doing do the math for this?

I've looked around but there was nothing.

Right now I'm working on my AP rune page I need to know how does Magic Pen scale vs Straight up AP for my runes.

Is it better to go .83 pen vs 1.8 ap at lvl 18.

Also does magic pen stack with the Void staff. Meaning does it take into account the magic pen before it applys the 40% magic res reduction to the target?

Thanks.


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Vaaz

Senior Member

12-11-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by kn0w View Post
Can anyone, that knows what they are doing do the math for this?

I've looked around but there was nothing.

Right now I'm working on my AP rune page I need to know how does Magic Pen scale vs Straight up AP for my runes.

Is it better to go .83 pen vs 1.8 ap at lvl 18.

Also does magic pen stack with the Void staff. Meaning does it take into account the magic pen before it applys the 40% magic res reduction to the target?

Thanks.
They do stack, that i am positive about. The order, i am not sure.

Also, the mastery in offensive, stacks also, adding another 15% MR reduction


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Vaaz

Senior Member

12-11-2009

ok did some reserch in the mechanics section

They say it is, reduction, then percentage, then flat/liner penatration.


So, lets say we have a fiddle sticks with void staff and sorc boots.

Aura reduces it by 16
then 40% bypassed
then 20 pen


100 MR - 16 = 84 (aura)
84 x .4 = 36.6
84 - 36.6 = 50.4 (Void staff)
50.4 - 20 = 30.4 (Sorc boots)

WITH MASTERY
100 MR - 16 = 84 (aura)
84 x .55 = 46.2
84 - 46.2 = 37.8 (Void staff + 15% Mastery)
37.8 - 20 = 17.8 (Sorc boots)


200 MR - 16 = 184 (Aura)
184 x .4 = 73.6
184 - 73.6 = 110.4 (Void Staff)
110.4 - 20 = 90.4 (Sorc boots)

WITH MASTERY
200 MR - 16 = 184 (Aura)
184 x .55 = 101.2
184 - 101.2 = 82.8 (Void Staff + 15% Mastery)
82.8 - 20 = 62.8 (Sorc boots)

300 MR (with all items/masteries, using fiddle sticks not including runes)
300 - 36 = 264 (Sceptar + Aura)
264 x .55 = 145.2
264 - 145.2 = 118.8 (Void Staff + 15% Mastery)
118.8 - 20 = 99.8
Runes would then further reduce that 99.8

So, the abysall staff, that removes -20 would be first along with fiddle sticks aura.

Then all %'s, Void Staff, and Mastery

Followed by all penatration, including sorc boots, runes, and mummy's passive

This is what i belive it to be, as for whats better, MOST heros start with 30 off the bat(few start with 25) merc boots and chalice alone, push them above 100 MR, really early into the game, and you can almost guareentee, 1 of those, if not 2 will be on alot of heros.

Add in 1 other MR item and you could easily be around 150 - 175 MR total.

I think its personal prefrence and hero choice, along with item choice, Also i dont know if they can be reduced below 0 MR. You also have to take into account the heros spells, and how they scale with ability power. Fiddle sticks, gets very poor results from AP, and much better from Reduction and penatration.


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Vichar

Senior Member

12-11-2009

I think you're asking, which is better, AP or Magic Penetration? If it's situational, when should I get one versus the other?

Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to your question. I should develop a calculator (maybe I'll do that this weekend).

Really, you need to know the variables involved and how the mechanics work. Really, what you should be concerned with is this question:

"Given the choice among several possible items I can buy next, which one will increase my damage the most in terms of % damage over what I'm currently doing per gold piece spent?"

I can sum them up the answer into some basic points:

-AP scales in a linear way. Remember that your spells already do a certain amount of damage, so add that to the AP adjustment. For example, if you are Sion and your shield burst is maxed at level 5, you are doing 320 + 1.0 * your AP. So if your AP is 80, your base damage is now 400. If you were to pick up another 40 AP from somewhere, you have added 10% damage. As you can see, the more AP you have, the "less" more AP gives you when expressed as a percentage, because it scales in a linear way. If you had 420 AP, your base damage would be 800. Another 40 AP now only represents a 5% increase in damage.

-Magic Penetration (Sorc Boots) also scales in a linear way, but it is dependent upon factors you do not directly control. It really matters how much armor your target has. Example:

A normal champion has 30 magic resist. Getting the Sorc Boots brings this down to 10. This means you're doing around 18% more damage, regardless of what your base damage was. Now, let's figure in a guy that has 150 magic resist. Getting Sorc Boots brings this down to 130. This means you're doing 15% more damage. So, as you can see, the damage increase has nothing to do with your base damage, and everything to do with the MR of your target.

Let's look at the % decrease now for Void Staff. Once again we'll compare 30 vs 150 MR. At 30 MR, Void Staff knocks this down to 18. This is about a 7% damage increase. (meh). Against the 150 MR, Void Staff makes it 90.... that means now you're doing 31.6% more damage!

TL;DR conclusions:

- As you increase your AP, adding more AP is less and less impressive in terms of increased % damage.
- If your target has low Magic Resist, Sorc Boots are going to be more handy than Void Staff. Conversely, if your target has high Magic Resist, Void Staff is going to allow you to inflict more damage.
- If you are comparing AP vs. Magic Resistance Penetration/Reduction/Whatever, you need to consider both your base damage and your target's MR. If know or can predict both, you can decide which item you should get.

Math:
Base Damage = Ability base damage + AP * (Ability Scaling Ratio)
Effective Magic Resistance = Target MR - 20 for Abyssal * (1 - .4 for Void Staff - .15 for Mastery) - 20 for Sorc Boots, in that order.
Actual Damage = Base Damage * 100 / (100 + Effective Magic Resistance)

Example (compare Zhonya's Ring to Void Staff--you don't have either yet but you do have the 15% mastery, abyssal scepter, and the boots.). Target has 100 MR, you currently have 180 AP:
Base Damage = 320 + 180 * 1.0 = 500
Effective magic Resistance = 100 - 20 * 0.85 - 20 = 48
Actual Damage = 500 * 100 / (148) = 338 Damage

With Zhonya's Ring: AP now 350. New Actual Damage = 453
With Void Staff: AP now 230. New Actual Damage = 474

So it this particular situation, it was better to get the much cheaper Void Staff. But every situation is different.

General Tips:
- If you're trying to decide what boots you should get, the new Sorc Boots are a good choice if you want to maximize damage. It's not a piddly amount, unless your target just has godlike MR (only tanks will).
- Void Staff gives you +50 AP. A typical item like Abyssal or Rod of Ages gives +80 but costs over 3000 gold. So, in a sense, you're almost getting the 40% penetration for free. If at least one enemy has over 100 magic resist, this is worth it.
- If you're trying to figure out if you should get more survivability or more AP, you should know that a pure caster in LoL is almost always better off getting at least some kind of survivability item (Rod of Ages, Frozen Heart, LichBane/Wit's End, etc.) This is because that, after running the numbers, health, armor and MR are generally more powerful % wise during the most critical points in the game, versus more AP. You will find it rare that a truly good team wants you to just max damage (see my section on diminishing returns for +AP).

Hope this helps.


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Grutz

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-11-2009

magic pen is great
http://www.bubblebox.com/play/puzzle/975.htm


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Vichar

Senior Member

12-11-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by kn0w View Post
Is it better to go .83 pen vs 1.8 ap at lvl 18.
.
+ AP is less useful if you're going to stack AP in the game. + AP is more useful if you're not going to get AP items.


+ MR Pen is more useful if your enemies don't have a lot of MR. It is less useful if your enemies stack MR against you. This may sound counterintuitive but that's how it is.

The two are calculated independently (for the purposes of answering your question), so they cannot be compared directly without knowing in-game conditions.


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wildfire393

Senior Member

12-11-2009

Unless you're playing a champion with a ridiculously high AP ratio (Nunu) or non-damaging moves that scale with AP (Soraka, Morgana), it is always better to pick Magic Penetration than AP.

Here's some math. We'll look at 50 AP, which with a 1.8:8.3 ratio means 23 MPen.

Here is an example situation:

Annie's Disintegrate lvl 5 with 100 AP from items versus 100 MR:
+50 AP : (260 + (100+50)*.6)*(1-(100/200)) = 175 damage
+23 MPen - (260+100*.6)*(1-(77/177)) = 180.8 damage