Is there a possibility that Riot will make an AP Version of Mercurial Scimitar?

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Fraux

Senior Member

05-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikachuux3 View Post
Are you serious? Why is that only AP champions are allowed to be bursted down, but not AD champions? This is quite a biased post you have right here. You do not realise how significant a silence truly is to an AP champ. Silence isn't quite relevant to ADCs because they can keep AAing, but mages only have their kit to do damage. You silence them, no damage at all for the next 3 seconds. This is where a QSS can come in handy to counter so. Again, you are incredibly biased with your example. So it's okay for Talon to kill Malz, and Malz has no counterplay to Talon whatsoever? Lol ok.
Do you honestly fail to see the other side of the argument? If APs had Scim, ADs wouldn't be able to burst them down because their tools for engaging on AP are made null by QSS. Shocking, I know. Thus, it becomes a game of "only AP can burst down AD". The game is balanced right now because both APs and ADs have equal opportunities to do damage to one another, introducing an AP Scim equivalent would upset that balance. Not that hard to understand.

Also, CC duration for assassins and tanky dps is much, much lower than AP mids (3 second silence, yea right), so yes APs have the means to react after it wears off. Auto-attacking is largely irrelevant, as burst AD casters don't rely on autos (not itemized for auto-attacking, damage they do from autos is miniscule in comparison to their skills), and tanky dps that rely on autos don't have hard CC.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Voidgolem

Senior Member

05-20-2013

'sides it's not like AP have, y'know, a bunch of defensive options that double-dip into offensive stats.

or most of the hard CC in the game.

or range ("OMG AD CAN AUTOATTACK" - Yeah, this is why Fiora is such a top-tier pick, guys.)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Cloud Potato

Senior Member

05-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikachuux3 View Post
Are you serious? Why is that only AP champions are allowed to be bursted down, but not AD champions? This is quite a biased post you have right here. You do not realise how significant a silence truly is to an AP champ. Silence isn't quite relevant to ADCs because they can keep AAing, but mages only have their kit to do damage. You silence them, no damage at all for the next 3 seconds. This is where a QSS can come in handy to counter so. Again, you are incredibly biased with your example. So it's okay for Talon to kill Malz, and Malz has no counterplay to Talon whatsoever? Lol ok.
Because most AP champions deal the majority of their damage in a short time, whereas many AD deal it over time. Also, you picked the worst example; Talon is the most autoattack dependent Assassin, and Malzahar has a Suppression.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidgolem View Post
'sides it's not like AP have, y'know, a bunch of defensive options that double-dip into offensive stats.

or most of the hard CC in the game.

or range ("OMG AD CAN AUTOATTACK" - Yeah, this is why Fiora is such a top-tier pick, guys.)
To be fair, the defensive items tend to have lower AP values. But the fact that AP have choice to go fully offensive, or to get offensive/defensive items and AD doesn't is both bad for variety and bad for the game. I believe it's the main reason why AD Bruisers are so problematic compared to AP ones.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Pikachuux3

Senior Member

05-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraux View Post
Do you honestly fail to see the other side of the argument? If APs had Scim, ADs wouldn't be able to burst them down because their tools for engaging on AP are made null by QSS. Shocking, I know. Thus, it becomes a game of "only AP can burst down AD".

Also, CC duration for assassins and tanky dps is much, much lower than AP mids (3 second silence, yea right), so yes APs have the means to react after it wears off. Auto-attacking is largely irrelevant, as burst AD casters don't rely on autos (not itemized for auto-attacking, damage they do from autos is miniscule in comparison to their skills), and tanky dps that rely on autos don't have hard CC.
I'm sorry, but what's stopping the AD from killing the AP champion even if they cleanse your CC?

Talon's CC is more of a gap closer than the utility itself, and he will still get the job done. Also, any ADC can AA the AP carry to death, whilst using QSS to block any CC on him. So I am not really understanding your theory of where only APs can kill ADs.

I don't really understand why you assume that only assassins and tanky dps champions have to use their CC on an AP champ. Have you never seen a Silence from a Kassadin, Cho'gath or any champion in general that has a stun? All of these will stop a mage from using their burst, and timing is quite crucial for them.

I'm sure AD casters don't build AD to do more damage, right? End build usually has around 400 AD, clearly that's not a lot of damage for an AA. Also, Jax is a tanky DPS and has a stun.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Pikachuux3

Senior Member

05-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud Potato View Post
Because most AP champions deal the majority of their damage in a short time, whereas many AD deal it over time. Also, you picked the worst example; Talon is the most autoattack dependent Assassin, and Malzahar has a Suppression.



To be fair, the defensive items tend to have lower AP values. But the fact that AP have choice to go fully offensive, or to get offensive/defensive items and AD doesn't is both bad for variety and bad for the game. I believe it's the main reason why AD Bruisers are so problematic compared to AP ones.
I didn't pick the example. The person I quoted did.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Voidgolem

Senior Member

05-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikachuux3 View Post
I'm sorry, but what's stopping the AD from killing the AP champion even if they cleanse your CC?

Talon's CC is more of a gap closer than the utility itself, and he will still get the job done. Also, any ADC can AA the AP carry to death, whilst using QSS to block any CC on him. So I am not really understanding your theory of where only APs can kill ADs.

I don't really understand why you assume that only assassins and tanky dps champions have to use their CC on an AP champ. Have you never seen a Silence from a Kassadin, Cho'gath or any champion in general that has a stun? All of these will stop a mage from using their burst, and timing is quite crucial for them.

I'm sure AD casters don't build AD to do more damage, right? End build usually has around 400 AD, clearly that's not a lot of damage for an AA. Also, Jax is a tanky DPS and has a stun.
end build with 400 AD dies when looked at funny by anything. And since most AD casters are melee good luck with getting into range to use it.

meanwhile that Generic AP Mid with RoA, Hat, Zhonya, and Abyssal has as many stats as the tank and can still 100-0 you in one rotation (or one rotation + extra Q/W, depending on which AP mid and your relative level of MR/health)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Cloud Potato

Senior Member

05-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikachuux3 View Post
I didn't pick the example. The person I quoted did.
Okay, sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikachuux3 View Post
I'm sorry, but what's stopping the AD from killing the AP champion even if they cleanse your CC?
What's stopping the AP champion from destroying the AD champion? CC? That's the only way. Either that, or not dying in the initial burst. And it would be disingenuous to imply that the AD champion can burst the AP and not the other way around.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Fraux

Senior Member

05-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikachuux3 View Post
I'm sorry, but what's stopping the AD from killing the AP champion even if they cleanse your CC?

Talon's CC is more of a gap closer than the utility itself, and he will still get the job done. Also, any ADC can AA the AP carry to death, whilst using QSS to block any CC on him. So I am not really understanding your theory of where only APs can kill ADs.

I don't really understand why you assume that only assassins and tanky dps champions have to use their CC on an AP champ. Have you never seen a Silence from a Kassadin, Cho'gath or any champion in general that has a stun? All of these will stop a mage from using their burst, and timing is quite crucial for them.

I'm sure AD casters don't build AD to do more damage, right? End build usually has around 400 AD, clearly that's not a lot of damage for an AA. Also, Jax is a tanky DPS and has a stun.
Oh I don't know, maybe the fact that almost all APs have hard CC in their kit? That they can use to lock down champs? Also, why are you using ADC vs AP as an example, when the vast majority of ADs have literally no CC? If you get hit by a Varus ult or pinned by a Vayne condemn, you deserve to be killed as your positioning is absolutely horrid.

As for the AP vs AP example, same thing. Those characters are designed to disable their targets so that they can do their damage. If you take away their disable they can't do damage because they are locked down (again, almost all APs have hard CC). It's fair for ADs to have Scim because they don't have long lasting hard CC. Jax's stun for example only lasts for 1 second. Get it now?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Pikachuux3

Senior Member

05-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidgolem View Post
end build with 400 AD dies when looked at funny by anything. And since most AD casters are melee good luck with getting into range to use it.

meanwhile that Generic AP Mid with RoA, Hat, Zhonya, and Abyssal has as many stats as the tank and can still 100-0 you in one rotation (or one rotation + extra Q/W, depending on which AP mid and your relative level of MR)
This doesn't have to apply only for AD casters, most assassins have gap closers(Kha6, Zed, Talon) so it's not incredibly hard to get in range. Hardly any of these champions will die when they have 400 AD and are squishy, because they have some sort of extra-measures of surviving.

I've never seen someone build RoA on an AP carry unless it was Kass, Cho'gath or Diana. All of these champions are already somewhat tanky, and that's probably why they take so long to die.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kythers

Senior Member

05-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by hawke solaris View Post
Attachment 688891

r.i.p. Moonflair spellblade
r.i.p.