Q: AP or Damage Teemo?

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aanallein

Senior Member

01-12-2010

I consistantly get 650-710 ap as teemo within 45 minutes what are you smoking. AP teemo is amazing. You guys simply haven't seen it done or don't know how to do it. I have yet to face a dps teemo that bests me.

Explain why teemo would rather go dps than ap?

blind dart scales incredibly well for ap. it instantly deals 800+ dmg at very long range. with dps build it doesn't do any dmg.

passive poison will be dealing 135 dmg/sec for 5 seconds so a simple auto attack with teemo will cause 500 or so dmg in poison with an ap build. with a dps build it will do merely 35x5.

shrooms deal 1100 dmg + dmg to multiple enemies with an ap build. nearly 3x as much dmg.

none of those 3 skills benefit from having more attack speed, more crit, more dmg, or anything else associated with a dps build. furthermore, if you go dps then teemo is now your counter. his role is to counter dps carries. that's what he does best. making yourself a dps character sets you up to be destroyed by an ap teemo.


you guys have any idea how strong an ap teemo is? deathfire hits for 60% of a tanks hp then you blind dart for 800, auto attack with lichbane (+600) and if they aren't dead already then your 500 dmg poison will finish them off. there is no better way to begin a teamfight then insta killing one of their teamates. and this doesn't even touch on the control over the map shrooms give you. i've yet to see a team effectively oracle my shrooms. grass > oracle.


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keftes

Recruiter

01-12-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by aanallein View Post
I consistantly get 650-710 ap as teemo within 45 minutes what are you smoking. AP teemo is amazing. You guys simply haven't seen it done or don't know how to do it. I have yet to face a dps teemo that bests me.

Explain why teemo would rather go dps than ap?

blind dart scales incredibly well for ap. it instantly deals 800+ dmg at very long range. with dps build it doesn't do any dmg.

passive poison will be dealing 135 dmg/sec for 5 seconds so a simple auto attack with teemo will cause 500 or so dmg in poison with an ap build. with a dps build it will do merely 35x5.

shrooms deal 1100 dmg + dmg to multiple enemies with an ap build. nearly 3x as much dmg.

none of those 3 skills benefit from having more attack speed, more crit, more dmg, or anything else associated with a dps build. furthermore, if you go dps then teemo is now your counter. his role is to counter dps carries. that's what he does best. making yourself a dps character sets you up to be destroyed by an ap teemo.


you guys have any idea how strong an ap teemo is? deathfire hits for 60% of a tanks hp then you blind dart for 800, auto attack with lichbane (+600) and if they aren't dead already then your 500 dmg poison will finish them off. there is no better way to begin a teamfight then insta killing one of their teamates. and this doesn't even touch on the control over the map shrooms give you. i've yet to see a team effectively oracle my shrooms. grass > oracle.
Your number are very off. Blinding shot doesnt do 800dmg by itself and your 1100dmg mushrooms (how much ap for 1100 dmg really?) can be countered by cleanse or a simple oracles elixir.By the 5seconds it takes your autoattack poison to do it's full 500dmg the team fight will probably be over.

A physical teemo:
* ) does way more damage with his autoshots
* ) can still use his mushrooms for escaping and map awareness
* ) his mushrooms still do alot of damage so i dont see a reason to dumb his melee damage just to get 300 more damage on the mushroom.
* ) He can still blind enemy carries and fulfill his role as an anticarry
* ) Laughs at any AP teemo he sees. Saying that AP teemo counters physical teemos is really a joke.


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aanallein

Senior Member

01-13-2010

Actually the tooltip says exactly that. 800 dmg blindshots (I've had 850 before) and 1100 dmg shrooms (I've had even higher than that). 650 ap is about the average I get. Somtimes I break into the mid 700s.

You obviously just haven't seen it played right. I have never been bested by a dps teemo. Not once. deathfire + blind dart is a dead dps teemo.


Cleanse is on a long cooldown and oracle doesn't counter well placed shrooms. Obviously you simply don't have any experience with it because my numbers are completely accurate and I've played like 80 games as AP teemo and 40 as dps. AP > dps.

Keep playing dps though I hope I get a game against you and shut you down hard.


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Captain Scro

Senior Member

01-13-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by aanallein View Post
I consistantly get 650-710 ap as teemo within 45 minutes what are you smoking. AP teemo is amazing. You guys simply haven't seen it done or don't know how to do it. I have yet to face a dps teemo that bests me.
You must be joking. There is no possible way that your teemo has 650+ ap at any point in the game. Lets break it down: You say that your DFG does 60% dmg bla bla, so we're going to assume you have that item and you use ur lichbane to help with auto attack ect ect, so its in there. Most ap you can get with an item is mejai's. Possible 220ap. ok, great. Next best possible is Arch Staff but since this is based off mana Im going to assume you're not using this one. Next is Rylai's. 80 ap. Now you only have 6 item slots so doing the math. 80*3+220+60+80 (and we're assuming you have a maxed out soulstealer since ur pro n all...) and that still only comes out to 600ap. You must have haxord the game to give you an extra item slot or something otherwise this is pretty much impossible even with runes+masteries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aanallein View Post
Explain why teemo would rather go dps than ap?
as if it hasnt been stated enough already.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by aanallein View Post
blind dart scales incredibly well for ap. it instantly deals 800+ dmg at very long range. with dps build it doesn't do any dmg.
ok, and my mercury treads cut that down to about 550 damage before other reductions. O noe I got nuked for 350 dmg at lvl 18 what shall I do?!?!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aanallein View Post
passive poison will be dealing 135 dmg/sec for 5 seconds so a simple auto attack with teemo will cause 500 or so dmg in poison with an ap build. with a dps build it will do merely 35x5.
Again, at the very least treads is gonna knock this down to 100dmg before reductions so again, your hitting for maybe 350 damage. And since it doesnt stack, your next 10 attacks or so are going to do squat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aanallein View Post
shrooms deal 1100 dmg + dmg to multiple enemies with an ap build. nearly 3x as much dmg.
treads really start to f you here. Maybe 650 end game. Clense makes this about 100dmg

Quote:
Originally Posted by aanallein View Post
none of those 3 skills benefit from having more attack speed, more crit, more dmg, or anything else associated with a dps build. furthermore, if you go dps then teemo is now your counter. his role is to counter dps carries. that's what he does best. making yourself a dps character sets you up to be destroyed by an ap teemo.
And basing your items off of your spells with a dps hero is just backwards. I have destroyed many an ap teemo using dps. Play defensively until lvl 8, get malady then feel free to run up and rape his face.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aanallein View Post
you guys have any idea how strong an ap teemo is? deathfire hits for 60% of a tanks hp then you blind dart for 800, auto attack with lichbane (+600) and if they aren't dead already then your 500 dmg poison will finish them off. there is no better way to begin a teamfight then insta killing one of their teamates. and this doesn't even touch on the control over the map shrooms give you. i've yet to see a team effectively oracle my shrooms. grass > oracle.
Well we figured in the equation above your max AP is going to be 600ish. That means your DFG will hit for ~50% hp not 60 and with your lichbane as the closest you will come to an auto-attack enhancing item your shots are going to be doing squat. Contrast that with a dps teemo, who at the same lvl with the same amount of money will be doing well over 250 dmg 2x a second or faster with crits hitting over 500 dmg not to mention the lifesteal, you have no chance unless you're vs a baddie.


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Vermifax

Member

01-13-2010

Even if you blind the dps teemo first his blind will still hit you, once it wears off he will be hitting you faster and with lifesteal so unless you 1 shot him (you didn't) you're gonna die. Most dps teemos take exhaust as well, so forget hitting him again before you're dead.


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Vermifax

Member

01-13-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by sAviOrZelda View Post
if you go ap teemo, you are a farming beast

1 shroom can take out any amount of minions
1 shroom as dps teemo can take out any amount of minions. They don't have that much health.


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Basilisk9466

Senior Member

01-13-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Scro View Post
You must be joking. There is no possible way that your teemo has 650+ ap at any point in the game. Lets break it down: You say that your DFG does 60% dmg bla bla, so we're going to assume you have that item and you use ur lichbane to help with auto attack ect ect, so its in there. Most ap you can get with an item is mejai's. Possible 220ap. ok, great. Next best possible is Arch Staff but since this is based off mana Im going to assume you're not using this one. Next is Rylai's. 80 ap. Now you only have 6 item slots so doing the math. 80*3+220+60+80 (and we're assuming you have a maxed out soulstealer since ur pro n all...) and that still only comes out to 600ap. You must have haxord the game to give you an extra item slot or something otherwise this is pretty much impossible even with runes+masteries.
*Cough* Um, not counting the vagaries of Archangel's, the next highest is Zhonya's, 100 AP and a 25% increase overall. (220+100+60+80)*1.25 = 575 AP. A second Zhonya's would bring it up to 700.

Not that that's a sensible or cheap item build. I always just shake my head in puzzlement at all these people who claim to ever get more than 500 regularly. I've hit 500, but only when fed to hell and able to ignore useful stuff like survivability.


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aanallein

Senior Member

01-13-2010

eh.. I get over 600 every game. look at my game history and you'll see 8 teemo games with 600+ ap in 40ish minutes.

2x kages picks in the beginning (prior to 10 min mark). you turn 1 into deathfire (at about 25 minute mark) and 1 you sell later (about 35 minute mark).

my end game item build is:

deathfire +60
rylai +80
void staff +50
meja +20 +200 (yes I carry and get max stacks most 75% of the time)
zhona +100
talent +10
zhonya +25% = +130

=650 ap

so your "no way ever" remark is garbage. I get that consistently. change the void staff for a lich bane and throw baron buff on there and I'm at 740. I hit this fairly frequently too.

just look at my past 8 games if you doubt me.

a dps teemo can not survive the 4 second blind. yi can't. twitch can't. the only people who can try to fight me are people with spell shield, banshee veil, or some kind of invuln (not counting tryn because I just kite him).

but as I said, keep playing a sub par dps teemo build. you realize you should just play tristana with boot of mobility and exhaust? then you have move quick and blind and do 2x the dps with better skills and superior range?

furthermore i have -40% to enemy magic resist and -10 from runes so my dmg is not being mitigated much.. not to mention hardly anybody gets mercury boots lately. most people get boots to further their dps. not to mention mercury boots don't help much. i have -40% cooldowns so I'm laying more shrooms, they are doing more dmg, and i can re-apply poison by continuously kiting a person or groups of people. mercury boots aren't that big a mitigator at all to an ap teemo's dmg output unless you are trying to score kills by laying lone shrooms which neither build will do. you gotta have chains of shrooms, shrooms at key corners, escape locations, choke points, and where team battles are about to happen. if you do it right you are hitting multiple characters with shrooms and they are under shroom effect for quite awhile just getting obliterated by poison dmg. and if they start seeing the shrooms as a problem and get oracles (which i hope they do) then they are now down 400 gold because when you play in a premade it is pretty easy to target a elixer carry and destroy them. that ignores the fact that a well placed shroom is invisible to oracle's anyway until its already been hit...

and no I don't build for survivability. a dps build cannot do that either and remain viable. teemo is 100% hit and run and map control. his skill set is completely conducive to that. If you try to stay in a fight as either dps or ap teemo longer than a few seconds to get your spells off you're going to die. so you simply don't do that. you play ap teemo much like you play twitch.


The only reason people think teemo should go dps is because he's ranged and moves fast. any hero with those 2 attributes would be as good as teemo in a dps build. blind scales incredibly well with ap and is designed to destroy dps carries. poison doesn't scale with any stat except ap (atk speed teemo is pointless), shrooms scale incredibly well with ap and most importantly, cooldown reduction. even his passive helps an ap teemo. and in case you guys forgot.. his attack range isn't even great. its sub par compared to any other range hero in the game making him quite vulnerable when dpsing.


anyway keep sayin dps > ap. someday you'll play an ap who stomps you and you'll think differently.


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Helorik

Senior Member

01-13-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by aanallein View Post
you realize you should just play tristana with boot of mobility and ignite? then you have move quick and blind and do 2x the dps?
You mean exhaust, yeah?

Interesting theory, I might have to try Tristana out. Generally in nearly every game I've played against her, no matter the hero, she is the nice squishy fun to kill person.

I make my Teemo DPS lifesteal and eventually carry.

Looking forward to giving Trist a shot tho, never tried her before.


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aanallein

Senior Member

01-13-2010

ya my bad haha