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Q: AP or Damage Teemo?

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FeLpZ

Recruiter

04-19-2010

uhhhh.. i've played this game for a lil over 4 months, and in that time i have gone from a malady buying master yi to the player i am now.. if you check my profile it says 700k more physical than dmg.. so what.. i used to play ad teemo a lot when i didnt know about the game, and now that i am smarter i would rather not play a mage as a dps.


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Zielmann

Senior Member

04-19-2010

I've been playing since before open beta... Teemo used to be godly as a mage, until they changed the scaling on his blinding dart. That's just about the only way I would play him before they made that change. And that was pretty much the normal thing, too. You'd see a Teemo and expect it to go AP.

Only since that nerf has dps Teemo really come into his own. Sure, you would see a fair share of phys dps Teemos before, but now when you see Teemo you expect a phys dps. And most of the time, you'll be correct in that assumption. It's a perfectly valid way to play Teemo. If it didn't work well, this entire thread wouldn't exist and nobody would ever play him that way unless they were just messing around.

I'm not saying AP Teemo is worse. He's just more situational than a phys dps Teemo.

I'm on both sides here. The only people I have a problem with are those who say that 'x' is the BEST and ONLY way to play Teemo. It's not cut-and-dry like it is with some other champions. Like Ashe, for example. AP Ashe is quite possibly one of the most useless things in the game. That's why you don't see it in normal games.


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FeLpZ

Recruiter

04-19-2010

yes.. it is pretty cut and dry.. if you want dps, you get a champion that actually has skills and attributes that contribute to your damage output. period.


how many dps annies do you see running around? same thing as a dps teemo, but less accepted.


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Zielmann

Senior Member

04-20-2010

You know ad/as Teemo is more accepted? Because it works, and works well.
He'll never be a mage to the extent that somebody like Annie is (an actual nuker). She has three legit nukes and a stun. She actually has a combo she can throw at people, and the stun makes it pretty easy to be able to hit with all of them.

What's your combo with Teemo? Blinding dart -> auto-attacks? Maybe put down a shroom if they aren't ranged and hope they keep standing on it?

Hey! That's the same combo DPS Teemo uses! And his auto-attacks actually do damage! And he's still getting an extra 35 dps from his poison!

AP Teemo is in the interesting role of sustained magical dps, as opposed to a nuker. And that's not a role that every team needs. He has specific applications where he's very useful, but not every team needs that role to be filled.

If my team already has two phys champions and a tank, and I'm in the mood for a Teemo game, I will go AP, sure. Especially if the last member is a nuker. But if my team already has two mages and a tank, I'm going to go phys dps Teemo, because that's the role the team needs filled.


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Swift Ghost

Recruiter

04-25-2010

I think AD teemo is strong but personally, AP teemo is 100x more fun, as well as having its perks. The best thing with AP teemo is hitting them ONCE and their hp drops. So funny. Kinda like watching Gangplank 1k Crit you. Also AP teemo is great for hit and run or for chasing. Hit, back off, hit, back off. AD teemo is pretty plain - the killing method is just like any ranged hero - besides a few abilities - but the main damage still coems from attacks


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Carados

Senior Member

04-25-2010

Quote:
Swift Ghost:
I think AD teemo is strong but personally,

Quick question.

What does AD Teemo have over any Ranged Carry in the game?
Quote:
Swift Ghost:
I The best thing with AP teemo is hitting them ONCE and their hp drops. So funny.



The problem is, if you have the 925~ish AP required to do 1K damage with your single nuke, would you be better off playing Annie, who has three skills which would do over 1k damage?


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Jman69

Senior Member

04-25-2010

Quote:
Carados:
Quick question.

What does AD Teemo have over any Ranged Carry in the game?


Map control.
He can beat any ranged carry 1vs1 if that matters.
He is better then average at BD towers/inhib. TF, Panth and Twitch are better though.


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Carados

Senior Member

04-25-2010

Quote:
Jman69:
Map control.

Your team should be buying wards anyway, which have a larger area, a longer duration, and don't explode whenever people pass through. Any smart team is going to detonate the mushroom when they walk past and ambush Teemo when he comes back to replace it.

Your team should should have a person who has Clairvoyance anyway, whose job is to check nearby brush, the primary thing I see mushrooms used for.

His map control is negligible compared to the actual necessary map control on any good team, and doesn't replace any of it effectively.


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Viro Melchior

Recruiter

06-02-2010

Well, I've been playing Teemo a lot, especially since the patch.

I've tried hybrid focus (Nashor's, Rageblade, Boots, Trinity).

I've tried AP focus (Nashor's, Boots, Lichbane, Rylai's).

I've tried carry (Boots, IE, BT, PD, LW)


That said, especially since the patch, while it improved AP teemo most, I've found what works the best overall is a more carry focused build, without ignoring your AP:

Runes:
Because I usually want a Last Whisper (that plus Nashor's gives me all the Atk Spd I need), stacking armor penetration runes is less efficient post-patch. However, for early game harassment, nothing compares to them. So I mix and match a bit, running 4 armorpen with 5 attack speed for my 9 marks.
My next goal is the one thing I think that is #1 priority on Teemo - cooldown reduction. You want to be able to spam that blind and trap. Noxious Trap drops down to a 12 second cooldown at 40% reduction. That's a LOT of shrooms, which is a LOT of map awareness, as well as traps to drag chasers through. Since I get 9% off masteries, and 25% from a Nashor's Tooth, I aim for 6%, which takes me 8 runes (you can do 9x non-scaling or 7 scaling, but I prefer getting 5.95% cdr with 3 scaling and 5 non-scaling so you have maximum yield early - since cdr runes don't scale up to the static value until level 13).
Which leaves me 9 seals and a glyph, which I run mana regen scaling in. I've found this to be a magical amount, as those 10 runes plus the Nashor's and masteries, and I only run out of mana when in constant use of my blinding dart. Just auto-attacking and zipping around to drop shrooms isn't enough to deplete your reserves. Which means you don't have to waste an item slot on any additional mana regen or extra mana.

Masteries:
9/0/21. I build full AP in the damage tree (1 point in crit chance) with the spell pen. Shrooms hurting matters (blinding dart and poison too!). Focusing with a 21/0/9 build would up the damage output, but I'm largely disappointed with the mid/high tier offense masteries (except the very top one). Conversely, I get the extra mana regen, cdr, movement speed, and summoner spell cdr by going utility.
Since I try not to be the ONLY carry type damage dealer on the team, and don't need the mana regen or cdr, I never bother with the neutral buffs on SR. TT is another matter, and I make sure to respec to get the buff duration increases for that map.

Summoner Spells:

Teleport + Ignite.
Honestly, whatever makes you feel comfortable is great. I like the low cd on ignite for getting some useful kills early, as well as helping counter a healer later on. And teleport + shrooms means I can be wherever I need to be.

Gear:
For me, gear falls into one of three categories. Automatic, preferred, and counter-build. Automatic gear is stuff that I ALWAYS get on Teemo (for the build I'm playing at the time). Preferred is stuff that I plan to buy at the start of the match, but may delay purchasing if other needs arise. And counter-build is the (at least) item that I'll pick up to help me perform better against the enemy team.
Automatic

  • Nashor's Tooth - This gives me all the mana regen I need to lane forever, plus maxes out my cdr, and still gives me a healthy attack speed boost.
  • Mercury's Treads - Almost without fail, these are my boots of choice. Occasionally against very CC-weak teams, I'll pick up Swiftness instead. I may be a dps champ, but I'm not going to sit there and die because I just had to get that extra 5% damage output.
  • Bloodthirster - This is my primary source of damage. With the map awareness I provide, the only time I die is during team fights, and re-farming this item isn't too huge a hassle - the values on it aren't bad even at it's base stats.
Preferred
  • Trinity Force - Extra burst damage, attack speed, slow-on-attack, and - well - everything. It's expensive, but I love both Sheen and Phage for how they play in with Teemo.
  • Warmog's Armor - My general survival item. I'll skip/delay this if my team is cc-heavy, or I just don't seem to be getting focused much.
  • Last Whisper - Heavy duty armor penetration, and a nice attack speed boost.
Counters
  • Banshee's Veil - my most typical counter-build, as it still provides some general defense, and further protects me from CC heavy teams. Also, it's my default +MR item if I keep having issues with their nukes.
  • Guardian Angel - if my survival is a real issue, I'll swap this into the TF or LW spot, as paired with Warmog's it makes me an actual effort to take down, which means less time spent worrying if I'll make it out alive, and more time spraying poisonous darts. If I just need the armor value, I'll swap the Warmog's for it, and rely on base hp + TF.
  • Other items such as Executioner's, SotD, etc fit in this category too, but have fewer reasons to take, on average.

So - why attack damage Teemo?
In general, he offers less than other carries. He has no skills that are based off his attack damage, and his only direct benefit from attack speed is his E passive, which is more effective if you stack AP anyhow.

On the flip side, focusing on AP leaves you gimp in teamfights - with only 1 attack ability and crappy auto-attack dps. Even Guinsoo's fully stacked plus Nashor's doesn't make you a threat. You Dart + attack (Lichbane enhanced), and drop a few weak poisons onto people.

Having tried both, I find that AP doesn't scale you fast enough to be worth a heavy investment. Blinding Dart has a decent ratio, but 1 ability just isn't enough in a team-fight. And the .7 total ratio on your poison is good, but for max effect requires you to micro-manage and not focus fire, which not only decreases your teams combined burst, but also takes a LOT more focus and skill. Noxious Trap does get nice scaling as well, but it just isn't going to make up for the lack of teamfight burst. Every game, I only get a handful of actual kills and assists from the shrooms, and rarely would the difference between 700 and 1000 damage matter (which is a 375 AP gap) matter.

And then, if you DO go super-heavy AP Teemo, one beefy tank (Cho/Shen) with Oracles, or a champion with an ability to ignore shrooms (Morgana, Sivir) will just laugh the few times they get hit, and ruin your farm most of the rest of the time.

Which really just leaves 2 strong choices - carry or hybrid. However, hybrid builds vary all over the place. You can have a hybrid build that runs Gunblade, Rageblade, Boots, Nashor's, Lichbane - focusing on the AP aspect while still doing useful damage... or you can have a hybrid build that uses Trinity Force instead of Lichbane and focuses a bit more on "real" damage.
And experimenting with those builds is where I found MY "happy spot". 90% AD, 10% AP.


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Gurlukovich

Junior Member

07-21-2010

I have played Teemo ever since level 2. Going on to level 22, I have loved him ever since. Naturally I started reading up on guides on the nature of the type of build was best for him. Most guides prescribed AD/AS Teemo. So I went with it. I absolutely loved this build, as it proved to be very useful in early levels. However, I began to notice that a lot more people between level 15-20 began to understand the type of character Teemo is. Overall, they saw him as an efficient pusher, a great ganker, but certainly not as a solo carry (may be possible if enemy has never played against Teemo). So as people became more aware of Teemo's generic AD/AS build, the number of game losses began to pile up, especially, if Teemo's allied team fed the enemy team. I tried other strategies, such as always traveling in a group. That did not work out too well, as it opened up one to two lanes for the enemy to attack depending on the venue. I tried getting tons of armor penetration; but even that was not enough to break through well played tanks such as Shen (especially Shen), Rammus, Mordekaiser, and others. I was left to question my tactics. And so I began to experiment on my own.

I decided I would start off by trying to get some AP items (ultimately going for an AP build). Initially, this build packed a punch since not too many Teemos took advantage of this build and left the enemy in bewilderment. However, I began to notice, after about level 20, more and more Teemos were taking advantage of this build; and so the story repeated itself. People began to look for Teemos great weakness in this build and they found it. Possibly the greatest weakness is the fact that with an oracle a ranged enemy can take out every single mushroom Teemo spent soo much time putting out. In the end, Teemo was only left to abysmal damage, OK attack speed, fast movement speed, a blinding shot, and poison darts. Without the shrooms, Teemo's ability to control the map was gone and all he could have done by this point was group up with his teammates and try to do as much magic damage as possible to an enemy. However, with magic resistance, even Teemo's magic damage was nothing and in the end, he becomes virtually useless. Given this problem I decided I would try out the best of two worlds and I went with a hybrid build.

As a hybrid Teemo, I started off as a relatively defensive character staying close to my turret and helping out my partner within close range. Going to far into enemy territory before level 6 guaranteed death about 45% of the time. By being defensive, and letting the enemy get close to the turret, an exhaust and blinding shot is enough to scare at least one enemy away and have the turret take care of the rest of the minions. Getting money at this stage is not essential until level 6 is reached.

By level 6, I unlocked my ultimate and planted about 2-3 bombs within the perimeter of my turret. This takes out an entire wave of creeps instantly and you will see money begin to pile up. From lvl 6 to 10, Keep doing this until you get enough money to earn a Nashors tooth, and begin working on your berserker greaves (more preferred) or mercury treads. At level 10 I would begin to start spreading my mushrooms around very frequently around the perimeter of my turret and with teleport around the perimeter of another turret. I would keep doing this in the jungle as well. The beauty is within the cooldown that nashors tooth grants and the movement speed that boots offer. You will be able to cover a lot of territory in a very short period of time. Before you know it, you will create a minefield. Now, by this time, around lvl 14 and 15 the enemy probably would have invested in at least one oracle elixir to make sure to avoid your ultimate. With the shear amount of shrooms you have planted, you will keep the enemy preoccupied with destroying the shrooms and buying more oracle elixirs to try to stay alive, while the rest of your team takes out a turret or two. By preoccupying the enemy in this fashion, they will have wasted enough money on oracles (granted your team keeps on destroying the enemy carrying the elixir) and will have wasted precious time to level up. At this point, the enemy will try to buy magic resistance equipment such as force of nature or negatron cloak, but little do they know that you are taking the Hybrid route. By lvl 15-18 earn enough money to buy a Guinsoo's Rageblade for the extra stacked attack speed (at this point you will have reached at least 32% + 25% + 50% = 107% attack speed). Along with attack speed, you get an additional 35 AD and 45 AP, not to mention that your AP stacks 8 times by 6 AP. So your magic damage at this point will be very good, your attack speed will be very good, and with the extra damage, you can start thinking about taking out turrets. If the enemy still has not surrendered by this point, aim at getting a phage or better yet a Frozen Mallet, or if you are really power hungry, go for a Hextech Gunblade. At this point you will be spewing relatively good attack damage at a very fast rate, and finsihing the enemy off with whatever magic damage you have left.

List of Items I Use for the Hybrid build:

Haunting Guise: +25 Ability Power +200 Health UNIQUE Passive: +20 Magic Penetration

Nashor's Tooth: +50% Attack Speed +55 Ability Power +10 Mana Regeneration per 5 UNIQUE Passive: Reduces ability cooldowns by 25%

Berskerker Greaves:+25% Attack Speed UNIQUE Passive: Enhanced Movement 2.

Guinsoo's Rageblade: +35 Attack Damage +45 Ability Power Passive: On attack or spell cast, increases your Attack Speed by 4% and Ability Power by 6. Lasts 5 seconds (stacks up to 8 times).

Frozen Mallet: +700 Health +20 Attack Damage UNIQUE Passive: Physical attacks reduce your target's Movement Speed for 2.5 seconds.

or

Hextech Gunblade: +45 Attack Damage +55 Ability Power +15% Life Steal +12% Spell Vamp UNIQUE Active: Deals 300 magic damage and slows the target champion by 50% for 3 seconds (700 range). 60 second cooldown.

or

Rylai's Crystal Scepter: +500 Health +80 Ability Power Passive: Dealing spell damage slows the target's movement speed by 35% for 2 seconds (15% for multi-target spells).

and finally:

Sell Haunting Guise and buy:

Madred's Bloodrazor: +30 Attack Damage +40% Attack Speed +25 Armor UNIQUE Passive: On hit, deals Magic Damage equal to 4% of the target's maximum Health.

If you really want to fill your 6th slot: Due to the large amount of HP Teemo will have go for:

Atma's Impaler: +45 Armor +18% Critical Strike UNIQUE Passive: Physical attacks deal an additional 2% of your max Health in damage.

ONE EXTRA NOTE: This build is not intended to give you 10 or more kills per game;however, from experience, this build guarantees a very low death rate. The main strength of this build is the number of assists you will attain due to the shear amount of shrooms that you plant. So do not be surprised if your number of assists is at least over 20. All in all this is a support kind of build. If you are not the defensive or support minded type of character, then this build is not for you.

Have Fun!