Do Black Cleaver and ArP runes hate each other?

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Universalis

Junior Member

02-23-2010

Well, my first item is always Black cleaver on Trist and though i hear ArP runes are the best, I still don't know how usefull they are if your first item is BC... Any thoughts on DPS runes generally, considering BC as the first to get item (after boots ofc)?


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SmecssRaege

Senior Member

02-23-2010

nah, they work together pretty well IMHO


black cleaver takes time to stack up...during that "stackup" phase, armor penetration will help your shots to do even more damage, and against any targer with more than 65 armor, the penetration will still help =P


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Eviant

Senior Member

02-23-2010

If you have a bunch of ArmPen Runes, what if you wait to get the BC? Make it your second or third item, with one of the items before that being boots. It will give you an item to help increase Damage, or Attack speed, or whatever you want, while taking advantage of your ArmPen runes.
IMO most characters wouldn't have high Armour by the time you finish your first item. Then again, it is all a matter of Preference.


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ichi the killer

Senior Member

02-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumpster View Post
Q: What order is armor penetration/MR penetration applied in? (Credit to TiberiusAudley)

A: From top to bottom

Armor/MR Reduction
% Based Armor/MR Penetration
Flat/Linear Armor/MR Penetration


Q: Can you reduce armor or magic resistance below 0?

A: Yes, although the only things that can reduce below 0 is Armor/MR Reduction. Both percentage and flat penetration do not have an effect after they get to 0 armor/MR.
No they do not hate each other. In fact, they work well together. See the above quote from FAQ or mechanic in the guide and strategy section.


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wildfire393

Senior Member

02-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Universalis View Post
Well, my first item is always Black cleaver on Trist and though i hear ArP runes are the best, I still don't know how usefull they are if your first item is BC... Any thoughts on DPS runes generally, considering BC as the first to get item (after boots ofc)?
Most champions have a natural armor of around 80 at level 18. Black Cleaver removes at most 60, and a full set of Marks is ~20.

Honestly though, I don't think BC is a great first item. In all actuality, I see no reason to get it over an Infinity Edge (which provides a huge boost to your damage on every single hit, no matter how many times you have hit the target before) or Bloodthirster (which provides the largest single item damage boost in the game as well as a huge amount of survivability through lifesteal._


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DonkeyBalls

Senior Member

02-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by ichi the killer View Post
No they do not hate each other. In fact, they work well together. See the above quote from FAQ or mechanic in the guide and strategy section.
lol wat. the quote you presented shows that they do no work well together. Once Black Cleaver reduces armor to zero or below, the Armor Penetration from your runes is useless as they aren't applied until after the reduction.


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Fbsunny

Senior Member

02-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildfire393 View Post
Most champions have a natural armor of around 80 at level 18. Black Cleaver removes at most 60, and a full set of Marks is ~20.

Honestly though, I don't think BC is a great first item. In all actuality, I see no reason to get it over an Infinity Edge (which provides a huge boost to your damage on every single hit, no matter how many times you have hit the target before) or Bloodthirster (which provides the largest single item damage boost in the game as well as a huge amount of survivability through lifesteal._
Well since the damage difference between BC and IE is only 5, i really don't get what your point is. If you are not getting other crit items IE is far too expensive for what it gives. IE may or may not be better in Tristana's case, idk cause i dont play her. However your reasoning behind picking IE does not make sense.

Also in general i don't think ArP runes and Black Cleaver hate each other, however last whisper and black cleaver definitely do.


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MeanBean

Senior Member

02-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildfire393 View Post
Most champions have a natural armor of around 80 at level 18. Black Cleaver removes at most 60, and a full set of Marks is ~20.

Honestly though, I don't think BC is a great first item. In all actuality, I see no reason to get it over an Infinity Edge (which provides a huge boost to your damage on every single hit, no matter how many times you have hit the target before) or Bloodthirster (which provides the largest single item damage boost in the game as well as a huge amount of survivability through lifesteal._
I have done some math on the subject. Lets say you are hitting a champion with 2000hp and 100 armor (not all that uncommon). Reducing its armor by 60 results in roughly +30% dps for you. And thats not counting the 75 damage you also get from the BC.


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Alucard628

Senior Member

02-23-2010

but thats later in the game, he's not saying skip the cleaver just dont rush it first.


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Fbsunny

Senior Member

02-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alucard628 View Post
but thats later in the game, he's not saying skip the cleaver just dont rush it first.
Ya, except Black Cleaver is more effective the sooner you get it.
For example take an enemy that has 60armor.
With 5 stacks of BC they have 0 armor. Lets say you do a base 100 damage.
100/(1+.6)=62.5
100/1= Means you get 60% more damage

Now lets say your enemy only has 30 armor to start, so after BC they have -30
100/(1+.3)=77
100/(1-.3)=143 Means you get 100% more damage.


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