Why this game isn't viral

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Orange Extract

Senior Member

12-09-2009

The problem is their anti smurf stuff. If you group with friends, it bumps you out of newbie island. They hope to fix it; I just hope they realize that it's pretty important.


Also, I was really expecting to click on this thread and see someone say that the game needs more H1N1 hurr hurr


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Meta

Member

12-09-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldo View Post
The problem is their anti smurf stuff. If you group with friends, it bumps you out of newbie island. They hope to fix it; I just hope they realize that it's pretty important.
This extends beyond newbie island though.

Here's an example.

Suppose this is your team:

You: 1800
Friend1: 1300
Friend2: 1300
Friend3: 1300
Friend4: 1300

The type of team you SHOULD be matched up against is:

Player1: 1400
Player2: 1400
Player3: 1400
Player4: 1400
Player5: 1400

However, the game currently overcompensates, assumign that your 4 1300 friends could actually be good players. So, your opponents might actually look more like this:

Player1: 1700
Player2: 1700
Player3: 1700
Player4: 1700
Player5: 1700


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Labomba

Senior Member

12-09-2009

Your problem with friends already being into the 20's is not as severe as having a new level 1 friend. Your solution is not sweeping across all of LoL.

What about conditions when my brother, a new player at level 1, wants to join up with me for a normal game? How on earth is this going to work out? I don't see a system coming that will balance everything regardless of level, ELO, skill, etc without magic and alien technology. I think the game was meant to be played with peers of similar skill level, and it should be that way. I also feel that players can become much better through solo queue and practice games, and can later join you in premade norm games. Also, most people have a diminishing cap on their skills, so while your skill gain slows to a crawl, your friend has time to climb within range of your ability level.

EDIT:::::

Quote:
Here's an example.

Suppose this is your team:

You: 1800
Friend1: 1300
Friend2: 1300
Friend3: 1300
Friend4: 1300

The type of team you SHOULD be matched up against is:

Player1: 1400
Player2: 1400
Player3: 1400
Player4: 1400
Player5: 1400
Thank you for saying this, as I didn't know how to get it out of you. This does NOT work. "YOU" are most likely grossly overskilled compared to the 1400 players of the opposing team. This makes for an incredible imbalance in favor of your team because you have the ability to use that additional skill and crush the opposition. Sure, this is a team game, but too many games do you see one player "carrying" the team. This is exactly what would happen here, and because the skill difference between your friends and your opposition isn't vast, things are looking in your favor.

how it should be matched:
You: 1800
Your friends: 1300

Your best opponent: 1800
The rest of the opposition: 1300

And of course, add in ELO to their team because of your team's premade penalty, making your opponents still slightly better than your team. This works, but the time it would take for the system to match this perfectly would cause some insane queue times.


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Dracorya

Senior Member

12-09-2009

I started playing when my brother and his friends were already in the 15s and higher. But then again, I DID do a practice game to get a feel before I jumped into a premade with my brother.

It was my first victory too if I recall correctly. But was pretty easy for me to have my brother coach me since we were in the same room and he had chosen a a champion that worked well with my first (I was Yi and I think he was Warric, :P We owned a lot of people).

I'm level 9 now and I still do premades with my bro and his friends...our win chance actually goes up when more of us premade together rather then just me and my brother. :/ Had a lose streak lately while doing that.


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Meta

Member

12-09-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Labomba View Post
Your problem with friends already being into the 20's is not as severe as having a new level 1 friend. Your solution is not sweeping across all of LoL.

What about conditions when my brother, a new player at level 1, wants to join up with me for a normal game? How on earth is this going to work out? I don't see a system coming that will balance everything regardless of level, ELO, skill, etc without magic and alien technology. I think the game was meant to be played with peers of similar skill level, and it should be that way. I also feel that players can become much better through solo queue and practice games, and can later join you in premade norm games. Also, most people have a diminishing cap on their skills, so while your skill gain slows to a crawl, your friend has time to climb within range of your ability level.
Well, obviously some situations can be solved more easily than others. In situations like the one I gave, the solution is very simple. Yours is more complex, because the difference between being a competitive player and being completely new is HUGE, while the difference between being experienced/moderately competitive and experienced/highly competitive isn't actually that big.


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Labomba

Senior Member

12-09-2009

Quote:
Well, obviously some situations can be solved more easily than others. In situations like the one I gave, the solution is very simple. Yours is more complex, because the difference between being a competitive player and being completely new is HUGE, while the difference between being experienced/moderately competitive and experienced/highly competitive isn't actually that big.
Read my edit above. The solution isn't so cut-and-dry as you think.


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Meta

Member

12-09-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Labomba View Post
Thank you for saying this, as I didn't know how to get it out of you. This does NOT work. "YOU" are most likely grossly overskilled compared to the 1400 players of the opposing team. This makes for an incredible imbalance in favor of your team because you have the ability to use that additional skill and crush the opposition. Sure, this is a team game, but too many games do you see one player "carrying" the team. This is exactly what would happen here, and because the skill difference between your friends and your opposition isn't vast, things are looking in your favor.

edit: how it should be matched:
You: 1800
Your friends: 1300

Your best opponent: 1800
The rest of the opposition: 1300

And of course, add in ELO to their team because of your team's premade penalty, making your opponents still slightly better than your team. This works, but the time it would take for the system to match this perfectly would cause some insane queue times.
You're correct, that in a perfect world this is how it would work. However, the matchmaking system generally tries to make PUGs that are around the same level as each other, not try to match the opposition. I can see the reason for this (all of the "My teammates suck" threads).

Additionally, the ability to "Carry" is largely character dependent. Sure, if I have 1300 rated friends and I'm playing Tryndamere I can probably carry them against a team of 1400 rated people just fine. If I'm playing Zilean or Janna, probably not so much.

Additionally, let's look at the 2 scenarios I listed above one more time, the first being against the team of 1400's, and the second being against the team of 1700's.

Against 1400's:
  • The opposing team will be slightly better than everyone on my team except me. If I'm playing a carry, more than likely I'll be able to score some easy early kills. However, when I'm not around, the opposing team should have a fairly easy time fighting my teammates. Overall, I'll be a big thorn in their side, but the match won't be completely miserable for them.

Against 1700's:
  • The opposing team will be only slightly worse than me, but MUCH better than all 4 of my teammates. Even if I'm playing a carry and go solo, I MIGHT get a kill or two off against the one I'm laning against. Meanwhile, both top and bottom lanes will fail, my teammates will get ganked repeatedly (feeding the other team), and before long my opponents who are supposed to be at a slight disadvantage to me are at an ADVANTAGE to me (due to being fed) and completely outmatch our entire team.

EDIT: Additionally, the scenario I was giving against these two teams assumes that they are also a 5-man premade, since no "Premade Bonus" was taken into account. This furthers my point about how the 1400 rated premade should still be able to mostly hold their own, and how the 1700 rated premade WILL UTTERLY TROUNCE my team.


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Luzoz

Senior Member

12-09-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larias View Post
There are practice games, which you can enjoy with your friends. Not saying you're wrong; just saying you have an option and you aren't using it.
This is not an option. Practice games tend to involve newer people or people trying weird builds and end up being easy games. The solution is Riot really needs to work on fixing the way the ELO system currently works. I am hearing this complaint more and more and honestly I am starting to feel the same way, playing with friends = a lost game due to varying skill levels.


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Labomba

Senior Member

12-09-2009

Quote:
EDIT: Additionally, the scenario I was giving against these two teams assumes that they are also a 5-man premade, since no "Premade Bonus" was taken into account. This furthers my point about how the 1400 rated premade should still be able to mostly hold their own, and how the 1700 rated premade WILL UTTERLY TROUNCE my team.
Well, if this is the case in that both teams are pre-made, then yes you would fair better against an all 1400-team than the 1700 of course. I don't think this thread is going anywhere, as I don't see them developing a new queue system to precisely match everyone, but I will say that even in losing there is something to gain. Your friends should find their mistakes and correct them, and that also observing a better team only fuels ideas for your own strategies and counters.


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Meta

Member

12-09-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Labomba View Post
Well, if this is the case in that both teams are pre-made, then yes you would fair better against an all 1400-team than the 1700 of course. I don't think this thread is going anywhere, as I don't see them developing a new queue system to precisely match everyone, but I will say that even in losing there is something to gain.
Actually, they are currently working on "Matchmaking 2.0", and they have a PHD helping them out with some of the new formulas. I haven't heard any word if this is one of the areas they're working on, but I think there is a lot of demand for this to be fixed.

Here's what you need to remember:
  • The queue system IS CAPABLE in its current form to make these matches fair and fun. The only thing holding it back is the system put in-place to prevent Elo smurfing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Labomba View Post
Your friends should find their mistakes and correct them, and that also observing a better team only fuels ideas for your own strategies and counters.
Using your "something to gain" idea, and going back to the examples I gave before.

Against a 1400 team I'd say there's something to gain for the 4 1300 players, since they'll be playing stronger opponents and will have a fairly even match within which to develop their teamwork.

Against a 1700 there won't be anything to gain by anyone. Players don't learn by playing against opponents that VASTLY outmatch them, and all it does is demoralize the players.