Which Thornmail do you like more?

Option 1 listed below. 5 41.67%
Option 2 listed below. 4 33.33%
Perfect as it is. 3 25.00%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll

[Change Item] Thornmail - Use "Block" instead of "Armor"

123
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

KingsRight

Senior Member

12-08-2009

Thornmail is currently:
+70 Armor UNIQUE Passive: On being hit by standard attacks, returns 20% of damage taken as magic damage.


if you remember in dota, their blademail gave armor and 20% damage return AND you could actually stack them and they were still considered handicapped!

In LoL they made that weak 20% return dmg unstackable, making it more worthless than it was in dota!

Luckily dota changed their blademail to give 100% but only activated.. and changed to effect ALL incoming dmg, not just physical. Nukes too.

So what i am saying is this thornmail is pathetic. One probablem with it is it counters itself by giving you armor to reduce incoming damage, thus lowering the output return damage. Also, that it is unstackable, which means it should give even higher output instead of measily 20%.

Problems:
1. is unstackable.
2. Gives armor, reducing output when it should be blocking damage instead, allowing full damage to come in to be returned BEFORE reduction so there is greater output.
3. Not enough incentive for mages to use as it doesn't make use of ap, nor does it provide any..
4. low damage return.
5. lifesteal just matches or beats the thornmail so it's not really damaging anymore.

The thornmail i wish i had:

*********** OPTION 1 Thornmail ************

65% chance to block 75 damage, 20% damage return as magic damage. UNIQUE: Reduces incoming lifesteal-healing effects by 40%.

============================

*********** OPTION 2 Thornmail *************

65% chance to block 75 damage. UNIQUE: 35% + (3% x AP)% damage return as magic damage & reduces enemy lifestealing abilities by 40% on their attack.





What i am doing with these builds is using block instead of armor.. this way you are still protected about as good as the armor was doing, yet you increase your output because if LoL is anything like dota (or rather, war3's engine), blocked damage is calculated AFTER return damage. AFTER is the key word there.

and lifesteal is reduced by 40% so it becomes less effective so that their lifesteal wont match your armor output. the % chance on block and the 75 damage to be blocked are just figures i threw out there. it doesn't have to be those exact numbers but it's to give the idea of what this could be.

Personally i like option 1 best because i think they should be stackable. 20X5 blademails would only yeild 100% damage return but it would be reduced by their magic defense since it is magic damage and still never be really 100%. so the users of the thornmail would never really match their full damage.. plus these stacked mails woudlnt be offering any other stat so you would be overly passive and likely not very effective to the team, should you go this route.. But it's good for us to have that option! That's what makes games like this fun.. being able to stack stuff for fun. thus it isn't likely you would be owning much with such a build. So as you can see, even allowing these to stack would not make someone godly as they would no extra AP, mana, hp or anything to kill faster or damage bonuses to physically kill anyone.. they would be totally reliant on someone smacking them. So that's why they should let us stack.

For option 2, if Riot still believed it should be unique then it needs to be beefed up on how much damage return it does and be upgradable by AP.

Another possibility is having damage return on all incoming damage instead of just physical, but i was hoping my Mirrorshield item, that i requested for earlier, would get passed to handle incoming nukes.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Wreckedem

Junior Member

12-08-2009

By (3 X AP)%, do you mean Each Ability Power gives 3%? or is it Each AP gives 0.03%? becuz that would be very unbalanced. A mage could easily have 100 - 300 AP a game which would be a bonus of 300 % - 900 % return damage. I actually prefer Option 1 over how Thornmail is currently.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

KingsRight

Senior Member

12-08-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wreckedem View Post
By (3 X AP)%, do you mean Each Ability Power gives 3%? or is it Each AP gives 0.03%? becuz that would be very unbalanced. A mage could easily have 100 - 300 AP a game which would be a bonus of 300 % - 900 % return damage. I actually prefer Option 1 over how Thornmail is currently.
i mean 3% x ap = extra %

so 100 AP gets you 3% more evasion. example: 3% x AP = 3. then take that number and just say it's a percent instead of a standard number. thus why i typed it like (3%xAP)%

200 ap gets you 6% bonus evasion.

By the way, i already made a post about the AP for mages, but i have decided to go with block damage instead of armor. Old post is here and it seems people favor that model over the current thornmail.
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...ad.php?t=28887

I posted this new topic cuz i feel that even that one wasn't strong enough.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

wildfire393

Senior Member

12-08-2009

The way Thornmail actually works is it reflects a percentage of the damage you would take pre-armor.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xyirx

Senior Member

12-08-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildfire393 View Post
The way Thornmail actually works is it reflects a percentage of the damage you would take pre-armor.
I also heard that Thornmail works that way too. It reflects a percentage of original damage before you calculate the armor you have.

Yes, 20% of reflect doesn't sound so strong, but if you think that you have got high armor, they would hurt more than you from their own attacks. If they hit you for 200 dmg, they would at least get around free 40 m. dmg already.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

JayceJa

Member

12-08-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildfire393 View Post
The way Thornmail actually works is it reflects a percentage of the damage you would take pre-armor.
this

hence original point of thread = wrong


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Goldenpineapple

Senior Member

12-09-2009

I've never seen thornmail return a significant amount of damage- built Yi pounding away on a tank with it seems unaffected. Obviously this item is stronger t he stronger your opponents are, but that's the problem. If they're strong enough for thornmail to make a difference they overpower what little difference the item makes anyways.

As has been suggested NUMEROUS times before, the low/mid tier defensive items (warden's mail, thornmail) need combine recipes, either with each other or other items.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

KingsRight

Senior Member

12-09-2009

why would you want to combine wardens mail with thornmail? it would slow their attacks so they'd kill themselves on you slower. the idea here is to let them do more to you, yet protect you against it.

i want thornmail to be kind of like someone attacking a brick wall.. the walls feels little, but you sure have torn up knuckles.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

immp

Member

12-09-2009

the damage block should be a static effect rather than a chance effect
*eg armor is meant to protect you so let it*

20-35% reflect on all damage could be good,would make it more useful


QUESTION for the EXPERIENCED : does thornmails 'return damage' prevent-reduce personal recieved damage or does it simply hurt your attackers ?


If thornmail prevent-Reflects %damage that would make it VERY useful and as such should NOT be stackable
*eg base prevent plus %based prevent stacked would be ridiculous*


Reduce incoming healing debuff : if this debuff does NOT lower lifesteal healing IT SHOULD.
Once RIHdebuff works properly they could definately put it on thornmail as a nice simple 2-3s versian of the debuff.
This would be enough to nerf lifesteal WHILE being attacked,but not enough to completely break alternate/team healing.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

EchoRex

Senior Member

12-09-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildfire393 View Post
The way Thornmail actually works is it reflects a percentage of the damage you would take pre-armor.
Don't expect to stop an uninformed rant by quoting facts and game mechanics at them.


123