Udyr: A look into why he sucks, and an idea to fix him

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SamuraiPanda

Senior Member

12-07-2009

Most people agree, Tiger is worthless and Bear is his only good stance. But people are all over the place about Turtle and Phoenix.

Turtle shield is worthless late game (a horrible AP ratio certainly doesn't help) but it is RAPE early game. A smart player will just pop the shield up every time the opponent tries to harass. I rarely ever die as Udyr in the early-mid games, because turtle stops all forms of harassment, and spamming turtle/bear/turtle/bear lets me run from tons of attempted ganks.

That said, running away is just about the only thing I've seen Udyr able to do well. He puts absolutely no fear whatsoever into the opponent, so he has no zoning game to speak of while laning. Yes, he can prevent harassment, but he can't do anything besides that.

But anyways, onto the meat n' bones of the thread.


Early game pros:
- Turtle rapes vs harassment
- Phoenix is decent (not great IMO) at farming

Early game Cons:
- Cannot harass whatsoever
- Cannot zone, as he has no moves that push the enemy away from his range
- Dies far too easily without turtle (thus lessening the effectiveness of phoenix, etc.)
- Tiger does no damage at all


Mid game pros:
- Bear is awesome for movement and stuns (can't gank with it, but can certainly help a gank)
- Turtle at level 5 can still provide a decent amount of protection if used correctly (although effectiveness lowers quickly over time at this point in the game)

Mid game cons:
- Adds very little to the team. The bear stun is the only effective contribution, and its very minimal at best.
- His pushing game sucks because he needs to make a HUGE sacrifice to his already gimped survivability. Phoenix/Tiger are the best for pushes/downing turrets, but if you get those two then you are useless in team fights and die way too fast without being able to escape.
- Turtle's effectiveness declines too fast in the mid game due to the horrible AP ratio


Late game pros:
- None

Late game cons:
- Hybrid that is decent at a variety of things but not good at any single thing, which is a severely underpowered concept right now
- Items do NOT help him nearly enough, and don't let him "specialize" in one role or another
- Survivability is laughable, unless you've invested into movement speed to run in and out with Bear.



Thats a quick list as to why Udyr is terrible. As for how to fix him, well, there are tons of ways that it can be done. The easy way is just to tweak the values of his attacks, but some creativity wouldn't hurt (especially because most people lament the lack of an ult, so he should get some other perks IMO). Here is what I think would be an awesome change to Udyr:

- To help his early game, increase his starting mana or decrease the mana cost for early level stances. And then let Udyr start with level 1 of all 4 stances. This will add quite a bit of originality to Udyr, and make him more fun to play early on overall.

- To help his mid game, Give Udyr a 6th level in all stances. They don't have to be as powerful as an ult or anything, and it will help his stances be more effective in the mid-late game but not make them too powerful in the early game.

- Then to help out his late game, give him better scaling with items, and tweak the values of his abilities. Also, give him better armor/hp scaling per level to make him not die in an instant.


I think a change like this would go a long way to add a bit of fun and effectiveness to a character that is currently unanimously seen as underpowered.


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SamuraiPanda

Senior Member

12-07-2009

I know that the community doesn't really care about another Udyr thread, but I feel like my analysis could possibly be useful to Riot for the balancing that they are sure to do soon, so I'm bumping it for the time being.


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Endnuen

Member

12-07-2009

How about making him better at stance-dancing?
Remove mana and give him shorter cooldown on his stances. It would make hin a lot of fun I belive. And also quite skill based.

I'm not sure what to do about tiger stance though. Make it so it can crit and prog item effects on all hits? To make up for the reduced dammage pr hit? Which makes it horrible against heave armored foes like Rammus?


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Wilsifur

Member

12-07-2009

I agree with most people that udyr sucks end game and i have simply found its because of scaling as mentioned earlier. I tried an ap build which is advertised in the tips section of his profile and did ok but not great. so here are my suggestions.

-make him survive better.....(self explanatory)
or
-Make all of his abilities in turtle and phoenix stance scale with ap on a 1/1 ratio. This way he will flatten people before they kill him. My mane issue is that ap is advertised in his tips but pheonix's ability is a 1 dmg for every 6 ap. Anyways with these changes he wont need survivability because he will be alot more efficient in downing people.

- A third idea is make tiger stance a stealth ability and the next attack that udyr uses to break stealth causes however much percentage of his attack power


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DemonicSnow

Junior Member

12-07-2009

Stance dancing in with Bear and Turtle are the only thing Udyr does. If he stacks CD reduc and Mana, he has no offensive capabilities at all. He dies before he can dance enough for it to count, yet stacking health/armor lowers attack speed, which is needed for all his stances (sept bear). I don't play Udyr much. I don't care if he ever gets buffed. I don't care if they give him the shaft and remove him, but I DO care that this original hero with a great idea is worthless at release, and by the time he gets buffed, a new hero with the same problems will appear. Riot, I know you are hard pressed as it is, and that this game is "free" and you aren't having the largest budget of say, other arena style games, but please try your hardest not to release heroes that are still "beta". I spent some good IP on a hero with little playability instead of investing in runes and what-not. So try your hardest Riot, cause i bought the Collector's edition to help keep this game alive and I will be ****ed if I let heroes be released that are "beta" without voicing my opinion.


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RamboBatman

Senior Member

12-07-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemonicSnow View Post
I spent some good IP on a hero with little playability instead of investing in runes and what-not.
Why did you do that? He is free to play atm. Regardless, I do kinda prefer releasing new champions underpowered rather than overpowered. I think players are going to complain about champ balance one way or the other, we can either have Heimer who probably wasn't too good and is now worthless, or Udyr who is pretty poor but will at least (hopefully) become viable in the future.

So, onto improving Udyr. There are, in my mind, two ways to go about fixing him. #1 is boring but probably pretty reliable and that is, simply buff his stats. Change nothing about his design, just change the numbers on the abilities. If Riot is going down this road I'm sure they already have a general idea of the problem areas. Udyr needs better survivability in the form of increased HP and resistance scaling and could use some increased AP scaling to make a few different builds viable. Easy, but not exactly what I'd like to see.

The real problem I have with Udyr is Jax. What reason does anyone have to play Udyr when Jax is available? Udyr is a melee champion with a dodge-based defense, a short stun useful against multiple opponents and, an ability which causes him to do magic damage after successive physical attacks. Sound familiar? Jax offers all these things and more, in that he also has an initiating ability and the AP scaling on his abilities is actually very high. You might say that Udyr also has some things that Jax lacks but, you'd be wrong. Tiger is about as useful as Empower (which is to say, not extremely) and turtle stance, because of the negligible effect of the shield, could easily have its effect duplicated by a lifesteal item, without losing your crit chance in the process. In order for Udyr to become really viable he either needs to be buffed passed the point where Jax does everything better (but then, why play Jax?) or, he needs to be changed such that turning into mini-Jax isn't his only path.

The OP had some ideas that I think fit the bill.

First, give more depth to his skills (a 6th level). This is great because it would allow people to play completely different Udyr builds, possibly even ignoring one of his stances entirely (now we just need a reason for the ignored stance to not always be Tiger).

His mana costs also need a reworking. A serious flaw in Udyr's design is that his abilities decrease in cost as you level them. Early game this means that your desire to have a level of each of his abilities to use, conflicts with your ability to actually move effectively between his stances. My suggestion is to flip the mana costs, making them cheaper at lower levels and more expensive later.

Once his mana costs are fixed, remove the global cooldown on stance changing. I'd like Udyr to be able to rapidly change his stances during teamfights, making him something more effective than a walking 1-sec stun. The new cost of his abilities would now be the limiting factor, rapid stance changing would come at a very high mana cost.

Finally, a change to Tiger stance. Right now this is pretty universally seen as his most useless skill. Its relatively easy to hit the attack speed cap stance dancing without Tiger and the 3-hit deal has no use. I think that making each hit trigger on-hit effects would be too good but, maybe if each hit triggered 50% of on-hit effects it would give him a decent item build without being too ridiculous. 150% per 3-part attack seems pretty reasonable, especially compared to the 300% that many are calling for.

Anyway, even if 0 ideas are taken from this thread I'd still much rather see some substantive changes to Udyr, rather than number adjustments.


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Trenan

Member

12-07-2009

Here's how i would like Udyr to be fixed.

1) Remove the global cooldown on stances
2) Allow passives to stack, but put a longer cooldown on stances

So whats this do? Without an ult, Udyr is at a disadvantage and his dodge/attack speed stacking takes entirely too long. Removing the global cooldowns lets u pop all stances at the same time, activating all bonuses for what? 5 seconds/on next hit.

Now he has a shield, a bigger on next hit attack, a small aoe, and movement/attack speed(not just from tiger, but from 4 instant stacks of his passive) and massive dodge.
Passives would stack and integrate, tiger would give attack speed, bear would give the stun, turtle would give life steal, and phoenix the fire cone. The triple hit from tiger, and the anti crit from turtle would be removed when stacked(now u can mix and match your favorite stance combinations!).

Now he has a psuedo ult, but leaves him vulnerable for 10-30 seconds afterwords as all his stances are on cooldown(would also give him some micro skills so he doesn't waste precious stance cooldowns needlessly).

Yay now we have a cooldown reduction oriented character and u can finally add a real 25% cooldown reduc melee weapon.


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Ad Victoriam

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Senior Member

12-07-2009

I've been saying he should have multiple stances early game for some time. Also, I like the idea of allowing him to gain some more power from a 6th level in stances.


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Starshard

Senior Member

12-07-2009

Instead of a stance triggering all stance refresh timers, make the refresh timer trigger for each stance individually and increase each stance's cool down time. All forms could then be triggered in a short period of time, but would then suffer from longer cool down timers.

Or, make phoenix stance an ultra that combines all other stances at their current levels into 1 stance and boost the phoenix aoe damage slightly. Phoenix would have increased attack speed of tiger, hp/mp steal and damage shield of turtle, and the stun/mvmt of bear, plus what phoenix already offers with the aoe/proc.


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Danceblaster

Senior Member

12-08-2009

Personally, I'd like to see some of the following:

1. More movement speed, more movement speed. The guy is really, really slow. Toss the movement speed buff from bear onto tiger stance and give bear stance a dodge. Or give tiger a passive dodge buff instead off attack splitting. Something, something. He just needs more survivability and speed.

2. Let stances "twist". That is, the passive buff from a stance stays up even when a new stance is triggered, allowing a player to have two passives up for at least some of the time.

3. Change on bear stun: there is a changing percent chance to trigger a stun on hit. When the stance is first entered, the chance is 100%. After a stun, it gets reset to 0 and for each subsequent hit that does not stun, the chance increases by a fixed amount until another stun procs, at which point the % chance returns to 0 and the process repeats. If we also allow the above stance twisting, an Udyr with bear and tiger up could be a potent CC hero with the rapid succession of stuns. I'll admit I'm weary of the stunlocking from DotA, but a little of that might be what this guy needs to give him some punch.

4. Phoenix: make this damage based off of attack damage. Entering the stance makes the next 2 or 3 attacks do a large splash attack, and then smaller splashes as usual. Again, this twisted with tiger stance would make for a potent AoE damage/farming hero.

The idea is to make phoenix and bear "primary" damage stances, turtle a defensive stance, and tiger a secondary damage stance twisted in with phoenix or bear.

Final tidbit: I agree that his AP scaling needs a serious buff. That, or remove it. The above change to phoenix with a change to turtle that gives the shield value a fixed % of maximum (or current!) HP would be a step in the right direction. Either make an AP build viable or take it off of him entirely.


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