Things i noticed about ap items

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

EchoRex

Senior Member

12-08-2009

Also gaining additional damage from being able to, you know, cast more than a single series of spells.

As opposed to auto attacks, which Semai is comparing spells to, being free to use. A correlation between mana and mana regen on ability buffing items maybe?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Semei

Senior Member

12-08-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elad View Post
Actually, you if you are buying Archangels staff you would use the mana you get from Zhonya's Ring and from Void Staff. Remember that 2% of your max mana is converted to AP. So the mana from those 2 items directly translates into more AP, especially considering the Unique ability of Zhonya's Ring of increasing your AP by an additional 25%, and your damage is further increased by the magic penetration of voidstaff (making that extra AP from the mana do even more damage). So looking at it from a "sane" perspective, some of that "wasted" 1375g directly translates into additional AP and additional damage dealt.
Fail again. Now you are saying that i MUST use Archangels staff ? Yes? Also you did NOT made your point even if i use Archangels staff. 1k mana * 0.02 = whooping 20AP? TREMENDOUS DAMAGE. Did you actualy calculated that gain before posting such a nonsense?

And the magic resist part just slipped out of your mind.. huh?

So far no argument. And besides some fellow casters that agree that ap mages have no option to go without zillions of mana and magic resist - emptiness.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Elad

Senior Member

12-08-2009

You are obviously a troll with no short term memory. You chose Archangels staff in your example, which is what I was responding to.

What magic resist are you whining about?

Since you seem to want nothing other than pure AP stack 6 blasting wands. that seems to be the only way that you will be satisfied.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Semei View Post
For example i want to build somehow defenseless annie - concentrating on damage.

Ok.. I want mana regen and say, a bit of mana so i can spam it out and kill something, then run away if no mana.

Then - i would go for example:

1 Item -

Tear of the Goddess


2 Item - ok have mana, need ap - so what do i get? Ok, i have tear so lets go
Archangel's Staff

3 Item - i go with mercury threads so i get cc redux for escape - thats about it for my survial
Mercury's Treads

4 - Now i have tons of mana, some little ap (pathetic 88 @ lvl 18), i need more ap - what do i get?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Jothki

Senior Member

12-08-2009

If you don't want to be flooded with mana, wouldn't the obvious solution be to not get an item designed to flood you with mana first?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Captain Scro

Senior Member

12-08-2009

Wow you guys are jumping all over this guy and he has one hell of a point.

The problem is actually inherent to the hero type. A tank will benefit from hp/ar/mr ect. A carry will benefit from as/dmg/crit ect. A caster will benefit from.....ap?

And we're talking about their primary focus in the game. Tanks take a beating, carrys pump out dmg/dps and mages burst. Problem is, that all of the items for tanks and carrys benefit them in other ways. A mage's items may benefit them in some way, but not in the offensive/burst sense. ALOT of money is 'wasted' getting things like mana regen, resist, hp ect ect. These are all well and good but its not what a mage is FOR.

Another factor that adds to this problem is the over-effectiveness of HP stacking. Its too easy to get massive amounts of hp on ANY hero. This mitigates the role of the caster even more. And if you really think thats not an issue, then you need to get off the forums and go play some more games.....

tl;dr
Items for mages are like college. You waste alot of money paying for stuff you really dont need or want because you have no other choice. If you want this, you have to take that and that and that....


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Elad

Senior Member

12-08-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Scro View Post
The problem is actually inherent to the hero type. A tank will benefit from hp/ar/mr ect. A carry will benefit from as/dmg/crit ect. A caster will benefit from.....ap?
The answer to your question is A caster will benenfit from mana/mana regen/ap/MR reduction.

In order to use that AP, the caster also needs mana regen or a huge mana pool to cast from. Otherwise, all the AP in the world is useless if you don't have enough mana to cast. So Mana and mana regen are actually useful PRIMARY stats for a mage. There are many other stats that are useful, such as MR reduction, and slow effects that allow you to cast on your target for longer.

The flip side of the coin is that Caster's can pick up some really nice health, magic resist, etc with an item that also boosts their AP. This allows them more flexibility to adjust their items to counter oponnents without gimping their damage. If a physical DPS needs more health, MR, or armor they have to pick an item that doesn't boost any of their damage stats, thus gimping their damage output.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Semei

Senior Member

12-08-2009

Thanks for your understanding Scro =)

Also noticed that the ones jumping me over when i have hard argument and valid problem are the ones that blamed me for saying other things in different thread, so they have no real reason to speak in this thread but just to spit out their rage.

Riot hear me! Please!

Put on some tests and theory craft about how you can build a mage and how you cant.

How much money you spend on secondary stats that you are forced to give in, even if you dont need them. And compare the same thing for casters.

Also see what usual physical dps items are used, think why, and see if you can find similar possibilities on ap builds.

Also think about flexibility of caster items vs physical dps items - for example some magic resist is ok - buy would you want to spend that 400g on that magic resist when you take that beating from physical damage not ability?

Do you have possibility of skipping that magic resist?

How can you wisely manage size of you mana pool and mana regen, how you can make sure you don't spend to much on mana and mana regen while your damage could use some help of that very needed money?

Also take note how you always try to make game shorter, see how you can manage your money smartly playing as mage in first 20 minutes, will you need to spend some extra gold on things you dont need, while physical dps just gets straight to what it wants?


I think that casters have so much less flexibility with their items its just very very SAD. You have no way to manage you mana pool, you will always have to get it. You wont be able to choose armor over magic resist. You cant manage money you spend on mana regen.

PLEASE TEST. Test on paper, test on real games, compare!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Captain Scro

Senior Member

12-08-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elad View Post
The answer to your question is A caster will benenfit from mana/mana regen/ap/MR reduction.
Yeah, early game.....to a point. Then the regen is 90% useless and the MR is inconsequential. We're talking about burst damage casters, not pew pew harass/I need to stick around casters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elad View Post
In order to use that AP, the caster also needs mana regen or a huge mana pool to cast from. Otherwise, all the AP in the world is useless if you don't have enough mana to cast.
Again, maybe early game you need regen, maybe early game you need +mana, but mid/late game you dont and if you do, then you can CHOOSE to buy an item that has that. But if you want JUST AP or JUST SPELL DMG you dont have a choice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Elad View Post
So Mana and mana regen are actually useful PRIMARY stats for a mage. There are many other stats that are useful, such as MR reduction, and slow effects that allow you to cast on your target for longer.
Again this is for a harass caster style, this entire topic concerns Burst Damage Casters and the lack of items for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elad View Post
The flip side of the coin is that Caster's can pick up some really nice health, magic resist, etc with an item that also boosts their AP. This allows them more flexibility to adjust their items to counter oponnents without gimping their damage.
The real flip side is that you're paying for stuff that isnt going to help you kill any faster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elad View Post
If a physical DPS needs more health, MR, or armor they have to pick an item that doesn't boost any of their damage stats, thus gimping their damage output.
And this is just completely WRONG. There are quite a few items that a physical dps can get that will boost their damage output and give them health, mr, or armor.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Elad

Senior Member

12-08-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Scro View Post
Yeah, early game.....to a point. Then the regen is 90% useless and the MR is inconsequential. We're talking about burst damage casters, not pew pew harass/I need to stick around casters.

So, you don't want to play a character that is viable for more that 5 seconds before being required to return to base to recharge their mana supply?

Again, maybe early game you need regen, maybe early game you need +mana, but mid/late game you dont and if you do, then you can CHOOSE to buy an item that has that. But if you want JUST AP or JUST SPELL DMG you dont have a choice.

Even playing Burst Damage Casters, surely you want to be able to burst more than once before returning to base? Why buy a seperate item with Mana regen when you know you can save an item slot by getting AP items with Mana and Mana Regen?

Again this is for a harass caster style, this entire topic concerns Burst Damage Casters and the lack of items for them.

See my responses above. To argue that Mana and Mana regen aren't useful stats to all Casters is Asinine and just arguing for arguments sake.


The real flip side is that you're paying for stuff that isnt going to help you kill any faster.

Isn't staying alive long enough to cast your uber-l33t spells helping your team more than attempting to burst down one opponent and failing due to death, or sitting there worthlessly for the rest of the team fight because you blew your wad and are out of mana?


And this is just completely WRONG. There are quite a few items that a physical dps can get that will boost their damage output and give them health, mr, or armor.

List them all off and the Ap equivalents then, and also list the costs of those items. DPS gets the shaft when it comes to hybrid items on a cost/function basis.
I'm done with this thread, this is like trying to tell nubs that Twitch and Eve aren't overpowered.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TeeNaku

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-08-2009

the thing is it doesnt even affect it that much becauese it is affecting a skill and doesnt have any other stats that it can fairly add to the only thing they could do is add more ap items that reduce cooldowns.

spell casters are fine as is.