Things i noticed about ap items

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EchoRex

Senior Member

12-07-2009

Its really apparent Semei is just an idiot. Went and looked at a good many of his posts all together, he just really has a poor grasp of the current game, basic mechanics, the current metagame, and the metagame aspects of changes being proposed.

This was the final nail in the coffin in proving how ******ed he is for me, I mean seriously, he can't tell the difference between auto attack(FREE) and activated abilities(COST) and the C-A-T spells Cat simple correlation between the items for each.


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Semei

Senior Member

12-08-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo7 View Post
Its really apparent Semei is just an idiot. Went and looked at a good many of his posts all together, he just really has a poor grasp of the current game, basic mechanics, the current metagame, and the metagame aspects of changes being proposed.

This was the final nail in the coffin in proving how ******ed he is for me, I mean seriously, he can't tell the difference between auto attack(FREE) and activated abilities(COST) and the C-A-T spells Cat simple correlation between the items for each.
You have no evidence about what you are saying to back you off. I have - evidence is right in the ap item section - there are NO pure AP/Spell damage items that you can buy besides snowball mejais =)

Talk about fairness if you even DONT give valuable options for casters how to build. One single chalice/tear of goddess/veil is all the mana regen and mana you usually need, when you have bought this, there is no way for you to not to spend money on some random mana or magic resist items.

Also Echo7 my friend, you have >90% of games played by pysical dps, i have >90% games played by ap mages (new ryze, annie, kassadin etc) and ap based tanks (taric, amumu) So in the end you sadly have 90% less experience in this matter so you could as well as stay silent.


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JayceJa

Member

12-08-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Semei View Post
there are NO pure AP/Spell damage items that you can buy besides snowball mejais =)
gee, maybe there could be a reason for that?


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Riot aBhorsen

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eSports Coordinator

12-08-2009

Personally i'm an AP ***** like it sounds you are and although i agree it would be nice for a pure AP weapon without having to go like 3600 for a Zhonya's you need to think about it.

I play Nunu (Total AP *****), with the current items it's easy to get 350 AP, Absolute Zero at lv 18 does 900 + 1050. Ice Blast does 275 + 350 dmg.

You are looking for an item that sits between 40 AP dmg and 80dmg i'd assume.

So thats between a Blasting Wand at 860 and a RoA at 3035.

Your not happy with the Deathfire Grasp at 65 AP for 2610 so i'm guessing your after a 60 AP weapon at around 1600-2000.

That would make AP heroes too overpowered.

Especially when you compare it to a DPS hero. BF +50 att dmg at 1850 or + 80 infinity edge at 4000! I'd say if anyone needs a pure dmg looking at it would be the DPS hero.

I say all this and i'm a AP man...


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Elad

Senior Member

12-08-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Semei View Post
Void staff adds mana (400g wasted)
Fiendish Codex adds only 30ap - and adds mana regen - possibly a 390g wasted.
Deathfire gasp adds mana regen - again.

I wonder what physical dps would say if we would add magic resist, health, mana regen, hp regen, etc to infinity edge, last whisper, black cleaver, bloodthirster...

I would absolutely love health added to last whisper. It's already one of my favorite items. The other items you listed are too expensive as is. Right now the only way to add health to a physical dps is phage/frozen mallet, trinity force, doran's blade or buy a warmogs or armor item.

As is, most physical dps champions are squishier then their AP counterparts because alot of casters grab RoA and Rhylia's scepter as part of their builds. Teemo is a good example because he can be played either as AP or DPS. Discounting Masteries and Runes, at lvl 18, an AP Teemo with a RoA and Rhylia's Scepter has 3044 health and plus 160 AP. RoA and Rhylia's don't have overlapping abilities that don't stack, and they work well with each other. Conversely, A DPS Teemo normally would only grab one of the following (phage/frozen mallet/trinity force) because the slow's don't stack, and they are expensive for the health they do give. Since Frozen mallet gives the most health, lets use that for the example, which gives Teemo 2544 health and +20 damage. Feeling generious, you could add Doran's Blade for another 130 health, bringing the total to 2674 and +26 damage.

Finally, there are plenty of dps items that give stats that you consider "worthless." Look at Trinity force, Maldred's Razor/Bloodrazor, Rageblade, Tiamats, wit's end, Nashor's tooth, etc.


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Semei

Senior Member

12-08-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elad View Post
Finally, there are plenty of dps items that give stats that you consider "worthless." Look at Trinity force, Maldred's Razor/Bloodrazor, Rageblade, Tiamats, wit's end, Nashor's tooth, etc.

And where are ap based counterparts without "worthless" stats of those:

Infinity Edge
Black cleaver
Last Whisper
Malady
The Bloodthirster

Do i have to say to you that those are the items that dps use like 99.99% of the time? Not single of those items has component as magic resist, health, mana, mp/5, hp/5, etc.

Where is ONE(!) single damage item that has only damage stats for mage? Mejais? You must be kidding me.

You just cant build a mage without spending thousands of gold for mana, mana regen, magic resist etc. You CANT.

If i have runes for mana and/or mana regen i could as well as never need even that single Sapphire Crystal.

You CANT build very defenseless annie - but you can build ashe, yi, twitch, shaco, etc etc. And they DO. Moust of the time.

You have no option to even CHOOSE how to build, you always will have to spend tons of gold for the stats that do not interest you.


On the other hand - pysical dps builds CAN choose - if you want say, magic resist and mana, you buy that veil besides your infinity edge. You want hp? You buy something hp - veil probably again, the rest of items - of you choosing - attack damage, attack speed, lifesteal, armor pen.

For mages - you have no options, you MUST buy that magic resist, mana, and mana regen no matter how many mana, magic resist or mana regen you have and even if you dont need a single more point of one of those stats - you MUST buy them if you want some damage item.

I hope Riot will look into this - this is serious matter.


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EchoRex

Senior Member

12-08-2009

Actually my ratio of played, is about 50/50 with the amount of AP builds I've done for Jax/Cho and then of course my beloved Veigar, and then the non Cho/Veigar mage types just to learn their abilities and timing.

Maybe you can get a clue, and re-read that last paragraph you quoted. There is a reason mana/survivability is on AP items, I'll give you a chance to look at some of the champions and the abilities thereof that use AP, then reply. Maybe then you can figure it out.

Hell, your argument style is back again to denial and exclusion based on something different than the way the game actually works.


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Elad

Senior Member

12-08-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Semei View Post

Infinity Edge
Black cleaver
Last Whisper
Malady
The Bloodthirster
You are arbitrarily choosing what you consider "worthless." Not all physical DPS builds benefit from everything that the 5 items you listed offer, and health, health regen, mana, and mana regen are not always "worthless" either. Both AP and DPS have items that offer Pure AP or pure Damage or Pure Attack speed, they are called Blasting Wand, B.F. Sword, and Recurve Bow (and of course their lesser equivalents such as pickaxe, longsword, dagger, and amplifying tomb).


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Semei

Senior Member

12-08-2009

No, mana regen and mana is not worthless, but it IS bull**** to not be able to choose how much money you want to spend on mana, mana regen, magic resist.

You all are ignorant or you dont see the word CHOOSE ?


For example i want to build somehow defenseless annie - concentrating on damage.

Ok.. I want mana regen and say, a bit of mana so i can spam it out and kill something, then run away if no mana.

Then - i would go for example:

1 Item -

Tear of the Goddess


2 Item - ok have mana, need ap - so what do i get? Ok, i have tear so lets go
Archangel's Staff

3 Item - i go with mercury threads so i get cc redux for escape - thats about it for my survial
Mercury's Treads

4 - Now i have tons of mana, some little ap (pathetic 88 @ lvl 18), i need more ap - what do i get?

Spend 740g on worthless magic resist in
Abyssal Scepter ?

Spend 400g for mana and 400g for magic resist to get
Lich Bane ?

Spend more than 1100g on hp im not planing to use to get
Rylai's Scepter ?

Spend 400g for mana i have plenty of to get
Void Staff ?

390g for mana regen i already have to get
Deathfire Grasp ?

Spend 975(!) more than i need for mana to get
Zhonya's Ring ?


From the SINGLE
Archangel's Staff
I get +1000(!) mana and 25mp/5 (!). And then i need MORE on every single item out there? OR get magic resist? What Lich bane have to do with magic resist?

ETC ETC.

I prove my point. Rod of ages is skipped because of obvious mana and hp stats.

Imagine all the gold i spend on some stats i dont need to just get that high tier item... Zillions of man and mana regen, magic resist for whatsoever reason stacked in magic damage items...


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Elad

Senior Member

12-08-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Semei View Post
No, mana regen and mana is not worthless, but it IS bull**** to not be able to choose how much money you want to spend on mana, mana regen, magic resist.

You all are ignorant or you dont see the word CHOOSE ?


For example i want to build somehow defenseless annie - concentrating on damage.

Ok.. I want mana regen and say, a bit of mana so i can spam it out and kill something, then run away if no mana.

Then - i would go for example:

1 Item -

Tear of the Goddess


2 Item - ok have mana, need ap - so what do i get? Ok, i have tear so lets go
Archangel's Staff

3 Item - i go with mercury threads so i get cc redux for escape - thats about it for my survial
Mercury's Treads

4 - Now i have tons of mana, some little ap (pathetic 88 @ lvl 18), i need more ap - what do i get?

Spend 740g on worthless magic resist in
Abyssal Scepter ?

Spend 400g for mana and 400g for magic resist to get
Lich Bane ?

Spend more than 1100g on hp im not planing to use to get
Rylai's Scepter ?

Spend 400g for mana i have plenty of to get
Void Staff ?

390g for mana regen i already have to get
Deathfire Grasp ?

Spend 975(!) more than i need for mana to get
Zhonya's Ring ?


From the SINGLE
Archangel's Staff
I get +1000(!) mana and 25mp/5 (!). And then i need MORE on every single item out there? OR get magic resist? What Lich bane have to do with magic resist?

ETC ETC.

I prove my point. Rod of ages is skipped because of obvious mana and hp stats.

Imagine all the gold i spend on some stats i dont need to just get that high tier item... Zillions of man and mana regen, magic resist for whatsoever reason stacked in magic damage items...
Actually, you if you are buying Archangels staff you would use the mana you get from Zhonya's Ring and from Void Staff. Remember that 2% of your max mana is converted to AP. So the mana from those 2 items directly translates into more AP, especially considering the Unique ability of Zhonya's Ring of increasing your AP by an additional 25%, and your damage is further increased by the magic penetration of voidstaff (making that extra AP from the mana do even more damage). So looking at it from a "sane" perspective, some of that "wasted" 1375g directly translates into additional AP and additional damage dealt.