Frequently Asked Questions or Mechanics

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bluZe

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Junior Member

05-06-2011

does crit damage get reduced by opponent's armor resistence?


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Lorifel

Senior Member

06-07-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluZe View Post
does crit damage get reduced by opponent's armor resistence?
It is physical damage, so yes, it does.


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Kalirren

Junior Member

06-08-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aregionius View Post
This is very, very much not true.

Also, abilities are no longer dodge-able for the most part, so dodge only has limited application on auto-attacks which primarily applies to a few select champions and to minion hits.
What Strill is saying is mathematically correct. Effective HP against autoattacks scales asymptotically increasing with total dodge chance:

physical EHP ~ 1/(1-%dodge)

and what everyone else (including Strill) is saying in response is that total dodge chance scales geometrically decreasing over individual sources of dodge:

%dodge = 1 - Product(i) [1-%dodge(i)]

No one's wrong here. Strill's point is that Effective HP still scales exponentially with individual dodge chances. Compose these functions for asymptotically increasing and geometrically decreasing scaling and you still get

physical EHP ~ 1/Product(i) [1-%dodge(i)]

which is exponential scaling. In reality, it is actually slightly better than the exponential scaling Strill claimed since actual dodge chances in-game come in quantized packages of ~10% which all stack additively with themselves, not in infinitesimal chunks which all stack geometrically decreasing with each other. However, it only works for physical damage.

This is why AD carries get items that boost dodge and why the team playing against an AD carry focuses magical damage CC on them.


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ebilstone

Member

06-11-2011

There is no sell champion option


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Lik3sB4lls69

Recruiter

06-14-2011

What is the actual range of Tiamat's splash effect?


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Shirigu

Member

06-20-2011

Q: How does cooldown reduction work?

A: Cooldown reduction works additively. If you have a 9% cooldown reduction from masteries, and a 10% cooldown reduction from Stinger (an item ingame) you will have a 19% cooldown reduction. However, cooldown reduction HARDCAPS at 40%. This means that you cannot get more than 40% cooldown reduction.


This may want to be reverified Stumpster, because using the recommended items given to Alistar by Riot in total they give him a 50% CDR.


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Fiery Flare

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Senior Member

06-21-2011

Errors:

Phantom dancer no longer gives dodge
Add Nocturne's spell shield to 'Can you dodge spells?'
The rune guide link doesn't work


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m0gX

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Senior Member

06-22-2011

also to add to "can you dodge spells:" Pantheon's block.

hate that thing so much lol


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Aregionius

Senior Wrenchman

06-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strill View Post
I gave calculations showing how it's true. It's kind of polite to give reasons supporting your opinion rather than just spouting "You're wrong".

And for the record, I do understand why you might say that so I'll qualify that the effectiveness of dodge increases exponentially only in respect to what dodge works on. If you consider total survival time with non-dodgable damage included, then dodge will have increasing returns at the start, then start to decrease after a certain number and quantity of dodge bonuses.
You're right I'm sorry, I should have given more reasoning.

Here's what is incorrect

When you have only one dodge modifier, you're reducing the chance to hit by the amount of the dodge, not increasing the percentage of dodge you take over the base.

So with your example of 12%, you're reducing the chance for an auto-attack to strike you by 12%. So in 100 attacks, you get hit 88 times on average. That means if the attack strikes you for 100 damage, without dodge, you get hit for 10,000 damage (disregarding armor), with dodge you get hit for 8,800 damage. A total reduction of 1,200 damage not done to you, or 12% damage reduction (not 13.63%, 100 hits is your base, not 88)


When you stack dodge modifiers, you get modified returns. Dodge does not stack additively. So, if you had two 12% dodge modifiers as in your example, your total dodge return would be,

12% + (88*.12) = 22.56% dodge

That means you get hit 100 times, without dodge, 88 times with one 12% mod, or 77.44 times (effectively 77-78) with two 12% mods.

So a second mod would effectively give you another 10-11% damage reduction from auto attacks, less than the first modifier.


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Strill

Senior Member

06-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aregionius View Post
You're right I'm sorry, I should have given more reasoning.

Here's what is incorrect

When you have only one dodge modifier, you're reducing the chance to hit by the amount of the dodge, not increasing the percentage of dodge you take over the base.

So with your example of 12%, you're reducing the chance for an auto-attack to strike you by 12%. So in 100 attacks, you get hit 88 times on average. That means if the attack strikes you for 100 damage, without dodge, you get hit for 10,000 damage (disregarding armor), with dodge you get hit for 8,800 damage. A total reduction of 1,200 damage not done to you, or 12% damage reduction (not 13.63%, 100 hits is your base, not 88)


When you stack dodge modifiers, you get modified returns. Dodge does not stack additively. So, if you had two 12% dodge modifiers as in your example, your total dodge return would be,

12% + (88*.12) = 22.56% dodge

That means you get hit 100 times, without dodge, 88 times with one 12% mod, or 77.44 times (effectively 77-78) with two 12% mods.

So a second mod would effectively give you another 10-11% damage reduction from auto attacks, less than the first modifier.
And what you're not realizing is that a single percentage of reduced damage stacked additively does not have linear value in terms of survival time. In other words you can't compare the bonuses like that. Here I'll show you.

So for the sake of argument let's say your character has 10,000 hp and is taking 100 damage per hit. So he'll normally take 100 hits before he dies. Now let's give him the 12% dodge bonus. He will dodge 12% of the hits on average, taking an average of 88 damage per swing instead. So it will take 10,000/88 = 113.6 hits to kill him. Note that that "12%" bonus caused him to withstand 13.6% more hits. Now let's combine that with another 12% bonus. This time he takes an average of 88*.88 = 77.4 damage per swing. It'll take 10,000/77.4 = 129.2 hits to kill him. So the first bonus gave him +13.6% more hits, and now this bonus gives him +15.6% more hits. The second bonus allowed him to withstand MORE hits than the first! On top of that even the first bonus allowed the character to withstand more than 12% more hits. This is what I mean when I say increasing returns.

Now I understand that auto-attacks do not make up all of your incoming damage, so a hypothetical 100% dodge chance would not result in infinite survivability. Nevertheless, I've run a spreadsheet with other attack damage types included and stacking dodge bonuses DOES provide increasing returns to survival time up to a certain point, after which the returns begin to decrease. Where that point is depends on how much of your total incoming attack damage was from auto-attacks.

It's survival time you care about, not damage reduction. My point is that you can't compare 12% to 10.5% and say the first bonus was greater even though the second will allow you to survive for more time than the first.