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The new Karma is rather stale and there are some design points I question

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Larias

Adjudicator

03-30-2013

Edit7: 5/14/13, 5:45am Riot Time: 1037 upvotes, and Karma is pretty much fine now.

Riot has more than doubled our Mantras. Riot has fixed some under tuning. Riot is working on a new W2. Honestly, all I wish is that she had slightly better AP ratios, but I have a feeling she'd be OP after that. Right now she has the feeling of sleeper OP in her.

After W2 goes through, she will be perfect. For now, she is fine.

/thread

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Edit6: 4/15/13, 1:45pm Riot Time: 915 upvotes, and A WILD SCARIZARD APPEARS! Check out Scarizard's reply and my reply to him!

Quote:
Scarizard:
A Wild Scarizard appears!

Hey y'all - sorry i've not had the time to post. Vacation/sickness aside, it's just hard to find a block of time to respond to the concerns players have the way i'd prefer (a long, all-inclusive post), but seeing as something is better than nothing, here i am.

This thread has certainly de-railed since its inception, and so instead of responding to things piece-by-piece i'll just say this here: Last patch was not a 'one-and-done'. I have no intention of leaving Karma in a 'weak, unplayable' state for any amount of time more than necessary. Karma's lack of Live Design support over the years has been due to a flux in rework prioritization, mixed with mechanics present on the old kit that made it very difficult to balance without pushing her overboard. Karma will receive buffs this patch, and we will continue to monitor/support the champion until we feel she is in a good place.

Does this mean we're just going to start tossing out ratio buffs? Likely not. I'm committed to making changes that ease usage and promote the gameplay we'd like to see, (such as the changes made last patch) and not just more damage across the board. 3.5 Balance gave her more uses of Mantra that she wasn't getting before. I think we can do better, and further the flow of Karma's combat and supportive capabilities, while keeping it very Mantra-focused.

I'm going to be busy during the day, but i will keep refreshing this thread and giving short answers where i can. When i'm off from work, i'd like to spend some time going more in-depth, so please leave me comments you'd like to see have responses. I'd like to have a constructive conversation about what we can do to make Karma better for everyone to enjoy. What are your frustrations with her play experience? Where are you having fun?

We're not going to rework the rework, but we can work together and give you a Karma that flows and feels strong.

Please keep the comments coming, and i'll keep reading. There's more than this in the works, but i'll show you a bit of what we have for next patch:

Inner Flame damage increased to 80/125/170/215/260 from 60/110/160/210/260
Inspire cooldown reduced to 10 seconds from 12.

First of all, thanks for the reply Scar! We all appreciate it - we really do.

Secondly, would it be possible for you to give a decent detailed explanation of various things you tried to make old Karma fit? There are a lot of angry people in this thread and many of them say that if you do that they may be more inclined to believe you that the old Karma was simply not balance-able. One explanation is all that needed - if they argue with you then all they really wanted to do was fight.

Thirdly, could you elaborate on new Karma and why it feels like you are doing something wrong if you Mantra something other than Q? Part of that is that W2 feels like you're baiting yourself in to a bad situation a lot of the time.

Finally, and this may seem random, but it is possible to move the damage of E2 to regular E and keep E2 as the "big utility aoe buff" thing? You'll probably say that would be OP, so perhaps half the damage of E2? This may sound silly, but you're already adding extra shield on top of shield in E2 - why not damage on top of damage? The reasoning behind this would be to make her feel closer to "old karma" which so many people want to do. If necessary, you could move other parts of E (maybe less of a buff or something like that) to E2 if you really feel the need to compensate.

Thanks, Scarizard.
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Edit5: 4/12/13, 8:25am Riot Time: 875 upvotes, Morello responds, and I have a few words on the responses in the thread.

Before I get in to Morello's response, I want to let people know something. I loved the old Karma. She was awesome. But people need to realize that she's gone. It is extremely unlikely that she's coming back. Riot says she doesn't fit their design goals and there's really no way around that.

I think that people really need to focus on what we can do for Karma now. Threatening to uninstall or refund new Karma will not get you old Karma back. Focusing on getting new Karma closer to old Karma will possibly save your fun though. Specifically, I'd love some shield/damage buffs to E2, for example, even if it costs some utility. That would get her closer to the funnest part of old Karma: shield bombing.

On to the reds:

Quote:
Morello:
Because old Karma (as mentioned) will never be a kit that is viable in League. We couldn't buff her because the gameplay was all over the place ) and would cause problems that are not worth the fun of Karma being good..

Some of the skills (the tether, for example) can, however, be refitted to work on a new champion. You won't see the kit in its entirety though.
Quote:
Morello:
To Larias' original (and well-done) post I'm gonna sic Scarizard on here to talk more in-depth. She's not beyond tweaks and some changes, but the identity of the champion will likely stay this way.

First of all, thanks for acknowledging the thread and for the compliment, Nerf Master Suck Town! I appreciate it and so do all the other Karma fans who are reading the thread and responding. Knowing that Riot is reading feedback goes a long way.

Karma had "readability" issues from what I understand - she relied heavily on her teammates and her skills were confusing to players who didn't know what was going on. I thought the reason tether was removed was because it didn't make sense - people had a hard time understanding what was happening to them. If you bring it back, doesn't that same thing happen?

Would it be possible for you or Scarizard to reply with specifics as to why the Old Karma wouldn't work? (Or, if there is a post I haven't seen that you already did this, could you link it here?) A lot of the people in this monster thread don't understand why her old kit couldn't stay. Giving them closure could go a long way to soothing wounds.

Thanks man. I appreciate it. Looking forward to Scar's response.

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Edit4: 4/10/13, 11:30am Riot Time: 850 upvotes and some actual patch notes. Let's go over them

Quote:

Gathering Fire
Mantra cooldown reduction increased to 2 seconds at all levels from 1/1.5/2

This is huge, hopefully. We are pretty much guaranteed a second mantra in a normal team fight and maybe a 3rd. This is really, really nice.
Quote:

Inner Flame
The detonation area now occurs at the actual point of missile impact instead of at the center of the initial target that is hit

This is interesting. From what people have said, this is a very good change. We'll see.
Quote:

Focused Resolve
Mana cost reduced to 70/75/80/85/90 from 70/80/90/100/110
Now applies Gathering Fire's effect on each instance of damage dealt instead of only once on initial application, but now deals damage 3 times over the duration instead of 6

Holy **** wow. You realize that every single W reduces the cooldown of Mantra by 6 seconds? This is strong. VERY STRONG. Mana change is small, as mentioned earlier, and not likely to be that useful.
Quote:

Inspire
Movement Speed duration increased to 1.5 seconds from 1.25
Fixed a bug where the tooltip stated the shield was 80/115/150/185/220 instead of its actual value of 80/120/160/200/240

Nice.
Quote:

Mantra Bonus - Defiance
Movement Speed bonus is now always 60% instead of 20/30/40/50/60% (based on Inspire's current rank)
Ally shield / haste range increased to 700 from 600


Wait, you're telling me that level 1 I can give a 60% increase movement buff to my entire team? Do you guys realize the invade potential of E2 at level 1 now? Holy hell.
Range increase is small but nice.

Overall, these changes look more promising than the PBE changes. Curious to see how it actually plays out.

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Edit3: 4/6/13, 6:50am Riot Time: 700 upvotes and some PBE changes to Karma. Let's go over them.

PBE changes:

Quote:
Karma
Focused Resolve ( W ) mana cost lowered to 70/75/80/85/90 from 70/80/90/100/110.
Inspire ( E ) movement speed increased to 1.5 from 1.25
Defiance ( Mantra E ) haste increased to 60% at all ranks from 20/30/40/50/60%.
Gathering Fire ( Passive ) now reduces Mantra cooldown by a flat 2 ( down from 1/1.5/2 ) each time Karma damage an enemy champion and flat 1 ( down from .5, .75, 1 ) seconds on basic attack.

This may fix part of Karma but it is not the way I really wanted to Karma to change. E could be useful now as a speed boost but it is still useless as a shield or damage dealer. If you Mantra E, you are deciding to do no damage in this fight because you aren't Mantra'ing Q.

W change helps a little with her mana problems - but not early game, where she really really hurts. Won't help in the long run because players will be getting blue and buying a mana item to help with the early game.

Passive change is nice - very nice. We might actually get two mantras in a fight now if we live long enough or the fight takes long enough. That means that we now have a chance at having power similar to another champion's ulti. We still don't have a passive, though.

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Edit1: 4/2/13, 8:45am Riot Time: 500 upvotes! Please respect the fact that Schmick does not have anything Karma-centric to respond with. Her intentions were well placed and if you are just going to come in to the thread to insult her, please leave. Keep the thread going, however, if you want to keep discussing Karma issues.

A lot of discussion so far points to 3 things:

1: She doesn't feel unique.
2: Mantra is a weaker version of Leblanc's ulti and it's a trap to use it on anything but Q.
3: She received better range AA and then they forced her to be in melee with W while simultaneously nerfing her shield and nerfing her ratios.

Keep up the discussion!

___________________

I am not here to debate whether or not the old Karma or the new Karma is stronger. That's not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is to point out the new Karma is just another AP mid.

The old Karma had some fun play in her due to her ability to be more powerful as her health got lower. That, combined with her mantra, made her a fun champion to do things with. A person tower diving a 20% karma was going to be in for a shock when she R+E'd with a high-AP ratio shield and aoe burst when she has an extra ~40-120 AP. Then R+Q for a good heal and then the diver is like "WTF happened?"

These types of baits were hard to pull off - and fun. She felt strong when she was low HP. That R+E on that Vi who just dived on felt good. That R+Q AoE heal felt good.

Now, she feels boring. Her Q is just another skillshot. Her E does incredibly bad damage because it only scales with ulti and that AP ratio is half of what the old shield was. Now, she no longer gets a large amount of free AP from her passive. Her W is her one redeeming factor.

And she still has the terrible mana problems that old karma had - but now you can't go Athene's first to solve those problems because you won't do any damage. If she goes AP items, she won't have enough mana to do anything in lane.

I really would like to know why her Mantra abilities only scale with her Mantra. 60 damage aoe burst with a 30 damage shield is ****ing awful at level 5. Yay, not even one auto attack! Even 140 at rank 2 is just awful. Compare that to Tibbers (200, also gets aoe stun, and continues to do damage afterwards). Hell, compare it to Annie's W which does 180 damage. (And they both have better Ratios).

I'm trying to find a way to finish this thread and it's really not coming to me. I'm just so disappointed.

I knew Karma had to change. Her kit relied too much on teammates. Her kit was rather confusing as well. But this isn't Karma. I honestly wish they had just replaced her W and kept everything else the same. Mantra has way too long of a cooldown to be useful. Her Q is just another boring skillshot. Her E is so weak compared to old shield that I really don't even consider it to be useful ever. Her mana problems are so bad that she she can't build AP. Her AP ratios suck.

Please, Riot, consider having her abilities buff the Mantra part of them. Even if it's 40/50/60/70/80 for E to increase the power then have Mantra scale them appropriately.

Please, Riot, consider giving her either more base mana or more mana regen. Or, alternatively, reduce the cost of her abilities. You gave her a passive that wants you to use more abilities then don't give the ability to do it.

Please, Riot, consider increasing the AP ratios of her abilities. Not only did you take away the bonus AP from her passive but you also nerfed her ratios. That's just overkill.

Thanks for reading this. Please give us something closer to old Karma.

Riot plz.


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Jowy Avilon

Senior Member

03-30-2013

As another Karma player, I agree pretty much with all the points brought up by Larias. As he said, she definitely needed to change, but the change they did make I don't feel was in the right direction. I would add more, but Larias pretty much covered all the points I would have also brought up.


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Gaiaside

Senior Member

03-30-2013

I feel your pain. I LOVED the old passive. It was really a fun mechanic, and it felt good to use, and felt good thematically.

Over-all, I don't think that the rework is all that bad. I do agree that it took some of her uniqueness away, but it was good to make her more accessible to players. Her old skills just had too many problems when it came to positioning, which made her really difficult to play well. Either you'd melt face, because of passive, or you'd die, because you're almost melee range, and you're squishy.

That said, I encourage you to read my thread here:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=36202245&posted=1#post36202245

I agree with you, for the most part. I wonder what you think of this idea.


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The Worst Quinn

Senior Member

03-30-2013

I upvoted for the blue name. 650297


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Silverrun

Senior Member

03-30-2013

As a guy who played Karma a month before her rework where the hell were all you hipster Karma players and your ideas for her ability buffs and changes before the rework even came into the heads of the fine folks at Riot no one cared about fixing her or buffing her and now suddenly now that she's got the rework all the Hipster leaguers are coming out of the woodworks every 5 minutes vomiting false nostalgia. She's damn good now her old passive was killing her, her heal was subpar weak range on the W, her attack damage made it so hard to last hit effeciently and her shield was the only good thing about her, Her mana cost were high as well as her cooldowns get with the times you babies.


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idDobie

Senior Member

03-30-2013

Yeah... I was really excited for the new Karma and she just doesn't feel right.

Supremely disappointed with this remake.


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Trylobyte

Senior Member

03-30-2013

She's definitely a lot more boring than old Karma and her skill usage doesn't have the same satisfaction that her old Q and E did. I've stopped arguing power level, but I will continue to say she's just, not Karma. She's dull, uninspired, and frankly boring.

Quote:
Silverrun:
As a guy who played Karma a month before her rework where the hell were all you hipster Karma players and your ideas for her ability buffs and changes before the rework even came into the heads of the fine folks at Riot no one cared about fixing her or buffing her and now suddenly now that she's got the rework all the Hipster leaguers are coming out of the woodworks every 5 minutes vomiting false nostalgia.

Uh. Tons of ideas were suggested. Hell, this isn't even the rework we were supposed to be getting from Riot - Another developer was supposed to be doing it but due to various reasons wasn't able to finish it, so we got something that was, essentially, completely out of left field.


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Caítlyn

Member

03-30-2013

TL;DR I suck at this game and instead of learning to adapt Ill cry to riot


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ManlyTeemo

Senior Member

03-30-2013

Sadly, new Karma feels like a lackluster version of Lux.


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Hevn

Senior Member

03-30-2013

The first time I hit level 6 after the rework and saw 4 "+" marks come up I thought to myself... "WTF. Is this seriously happening right now? Why did they even keep mantra if it has to be leveled now, and how the heck is this all supposed to add together?"