The argument to change the hotfix

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Arcadence

Senior Member

11-04-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gencat View Post
Honestly Phreak what is there for LeBlanc to do? her role is a single target burst assassin she should be able to get in kill the squishy in 3 seconds and get out if not kill then severly damage them so they are wary. She brings little to teamfights sure she can silence one target and snare 1 or 2. after that what is she to do?

You made a champion whoes skills synergize excellently agaisnt a single champion and threw her into a team built game which is fine a champion that excells vs a single target should excell early game as that is where they will truly shine. But this game is built around the meta of tanks. sure you see some single target champions high up in the tier list but honestly ww made it there because he is almost always jungling and can suppress a target for 3 seconds which makes him excellent at ganking which in turn hurts the other teams late game while helping your own.

LeBlanc was balanced before the nerf maybe a slight bit op with her mana - damage ratios (the 10-20 mana increase on her skills was needed to say the least) i dont really care about the q skill as 50 range really isnt that much of a difference. but a 33% increase to her ults cd time is absolutely ridiculous and then you guys go on to nerf her armor and mana per level. she went from balanced to low tier in the matter of 2 days, i believe this is a record.

If you want to fix LeBlanc implement the following changes

Sigil - 60/110/170/210/260 with the proc damage being 20/40/60/80/100 keep the ap ratio the same leave the range at 700 lower the mana cost to 85 at all levels keep the duration of silence the same but increase the cd by 1 or 2 seconds.

Distortion - Keep the damage keep the mana cost keep the range lower the cd by 1 second at all levels

Chain - 60/70/80/90/100 Damage and 60/70/80/90/100 on the proc after 2 seconds reduce the range the chain stays (i have had this stay from me in the middle of a lane to them at their tower its kinda broken at this moment)

Mimic - 40/35/30 cd 20%/30%/40% damage increase (seeing as this is an ULT its really not asking for much)

Attack Damage - 51 base damage is so low its ridiculous it is very hard to last hit with this (and her attack animation really isnt as fast as people make it out to be she tends to get glitched between moving and attacking as sometimes she seems to just sit there when told to attack a creep. no this is not a lag issue as i had 30 ms and 60 fps at the time) i would recommend uping the damage to 59

Armor Per Level - 15 base armor is a bit low making it 17 with the same armor increase ratio we have now post nerf would be a bit better for a glass cannon assassin

Health per level - Lets face it her health is extremely low as it should be for the role she plays i wouldnt change anything here

Mana per Level - leave it as is it will make people think before mindlessly building their champion

Her passive seems to be utterly bugged when it comes to suppresive champions and even dots (she stealths for half a second and then reappears with a clone) this should not break a champion's ult who is suppressing her and has the ability to see her when it activates (either near a tower or has oracle/vision ward near by) i dont think it should break even when she does stealth and they cant see them. Dot removal this should not happen whatsoever all she is supposed to do is stealth last time i checked an eve or twitch trying to stealth with malz's dot on them never lost it until it either wore off or they died from it.

yes its a long post, no im not including a tl;dr, yes some of you will downvote me solely on the fact i have the "junior member" tag under my name, so be it. but i do hope for constructive feedback and not the same people who troll anyone who puts an idea on the forums
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faintblade View Post
She was fine.
Seriously. Her late game sucked. I tried to tell people nerfing her early game would make her late game useless in this archetype because she would be starved of early kills, but they even nerfed late game too.

Hate to see such a unique character become less viable than she already was. I'm a little angry to be honest.

No way can we qq as much as the people who were asking for nerfs. Usually I have faith In riot to realize what to do to make a character viable; what it seemed like they tried to do with this nerf is to change the metagame. Phreak said:


It's not. Look at Kog'Maw. He has little to no AoE. Want to know why he succeeds? Because he single targets well enough to counter the fact that most champions DO, infact need AoE. You could say the same thing about Tristana. Unfortunately nerfing LeBlanc is not going to change the metagame.

Leblanc is a mage, to top it all off. You guys *know* mages fall off significantly late game. I know Riot wants LeBlanc to be viable, but she just does not have the power she needs to be anything but practically a walking silence and snare late game. I don't for one second I know what's better than the game than you, but you guys seem to care alot about the feedback we post on the forums, and really take it to heart. I agree LeBlanc needed less lane presence. I personally think you could nerf her lane presence without nerfing her ablility to get kills. She could, before, force you to recall. Alot.

If it were me, early game the blink needs to do these things: At rank 1 the tele should not blink as far as at rank 5. In this way she wouldn't be able to as easily dash in, do her combo, and dash out.

Also, perhaps at low ranks allow the time to recall back to your marker to be lower? Say, at rank 1, you only have 2 seconds to press W again to go back, but at rank 5 you have 4 seconds. She needs the time late game. She absolutely does not early game.

Her mana dependency needed to be higher. Good job there. Her sigil range needed to be lower. Good job there (I believe you did this).

But Sigil range is very important late game. I'd say make the range on that scale.

In these ways you wouldn't decrease her ability to get the kills she needs to be successful late game, because she would do the same amount of damage given the correct chance.

I'm no game designer, but Leblanc was worse than annie is late game before; now she has to work even harder for kills than annie does to get to that key spot late game.

Honestly, I don't personally see what you were trying to do. Counter the metagame? She needs to do more damage late game; ALOT MORE. Any person can just go pick up a banshees veil at this point and make her utterly useless. I question if this is actually where you want mages to fall? Do you not want mages to be able to carry? I'm not trying to question you or turn this into a conspiracy, but I'd love to see reasoning behind it. As it stands, the closest thing to a mage-carry is Kog'Maw, and we all know he's very very much ranged, hardly a caster. Annie and veigar are viable late because of their control late game; not as much about their damage. Their aoe stuns can turn the tide of a fight and punish squishies who did not appropriately counter them. All leblanc has going for her right now is doing barely enough to be a threat (late game) and then blink out to relative safety. Any stun or snare will counter this.

To sum it up, Late game leblanc has no role. At all. She cannot initate without dying. She cannot kill people and get out within 3 seconds reliably. She is easily countered. If you wanted her to be viable in this metagame, you've got to face some facts. Either give her some AoE potential or give her something that makes her a legitimate threat without sacrificing self-gameplay. As it stands, even Akali can do everything she can do late game to a much higher degree.

Yeah. I said what I need to say. Hopefully you'll take it positively. Though I know it's easier to respond to "Nerf!" than it is to "Buff!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico The Mad View Post
I've said this so many times in the other threads... the problem with LeBlanc from day one was the fact that for some unknown reason, Q has been made into her high damage spell, while her E is pretty much worthless except for mopping up or throwing it on someone after you blow your other spells and they're on their 200 hour cooldowns.

I do not understand why you would put the burst damage on a "high skill caster" on a click to cast ability, yet make her skillshot(which takes timing, aim, and about 3 or 4 seconds of gluing yourself to your target) incredibly weak by comparison.

Like I said many times, Q should not be her high damage ability. It allows non-skilled players to do insane burst damage (well, not really anymore, heh) without having to do anything but click two buttons. Q should be about the silence, not the burst.

If instead of taking the easy way out and changing some numbers around, Riot had considered a more refined option and made her skillshot do her burst damage it would have solved her problems swiftly and elegantly.

It would have:

1) Spread out her burst over a few more seconds, allowing the person she's attacking time to react (by getting away from her E's "root chain proc") and not have to take full damage.

2) Increased the reward for high skill players, while making her less powerful in the hands of low skill "I click you're dead" type players.

3) Given Leblanc more interesting and rewarding options for Mimic. In her current form, using mimic for anything other than farming (which is risky enough as it is, using your escape skill to farm) or Q is a dumb idea. Using E -> Mimic is almost never a good idea, unless you're scavenging kills after a team fight and stealing the gold from more effective carries.

So now we've ended up with this: A low power "assassin" with little utility past her silence and no team fight presence other than being the first to die, every team fight. She's kind of like Shaco, except she can't even jungle.

Oh and her passive... don't even get me started on that passive. Worthless. Take a mechanic that is already proven not to work well with highly skilled players (Shaco's clone which shows as not having any items or auras when you click him) but then you throw it on a CASTER that casts SPELLS. Guess what? Wanna know an even easier way to tell who the real LB is? Simply focus the one who's casting spells at you. Shaco's clone partially works because shaco is an autoattacker. Leblanc is not, and her autoattacking durrrr clone fools only people who think focusing the tank is a good idea in team fights.

The fact that her ultimate, which was only appealing due to the fact that in theory it provided the player with a lot more combo options, falls flat on its face because any smart player will refuse to waste their ultimate on anything other than a mimicked Q shot. Doing otherwise is being doomed to failure.

I mean, were the teamfight repercusions for this change even thought out? Before, she could use her ultimate twice in a teamfight if she had max CDR, and if she managed to survive. Now, her ultimate has such a long CD that she can only use it once.

This would be fine, if her ultimate wasn't so lackluster. Compared to every other ultimate out there. Vlad's massive AOE damage + team damage boost, morgana's death web, galio's rofldeathtaunt and every other good ultimate... why would anyone want her ultimate in a team fight? What does she bring to the table with it now? And extra silence? Malzahar can do a much better job at taking out a single target (not only that, but he can SUPPRESS) but he can also do massive AOE damage, as well as AOE silence. And he's not even considered top tier...

What Riot should be asking themselves now is this: What exactly is her role? She has no more burst than any of the other assassins, she's squishier than all of the other assassins, and she has less team utility than any of the other assassins or casters. Why on earth should a team pick her? What is her role now?
With or without the nerfs, LeBlanc still has a harder time leveling up than other champs. She can't farm minions as well as other casters because of her one AoE with a LONG cooldown. Combined with her spells costing more mana, and less damage she does, her ability to harass and weaken a lane's champs (which will effect endgame, which she can do little to nothing in except snare).

Longer CD on Mimic? It was needed.
Range nerf on Q? Very much needed. You could snipe fleeing champs while they run to turrets, instead of towerdiving.
Increase on mana cost for spells? Fine.
Decrease in overall mana/level? Not entirely needed, I never saw a problem with it.
Decrease in armor/level? Not Needed, she was plenty squishy as it was. With the mana increase on increased CD on Mimic, LeBlanc can't blink three times (W, R, Flash), so she's still vulnerable.
Damage nerf on her spells? Not needed. She RELIES on the early-mid games to either snowball or harass the enemy team, because in late games she does utterly NOTHING but snare and silence.

As for solutions, whether it be in a hotfix or in two weeks, would be:
-Increase her endgame potential. She severely lacks in this department, which is a MAJOR problem.
-Return the damages to her spells as in original release
-Return the armor/level she had
-Increase on the CD of Q

Riot and the Q_Qers can keep the mana shortage, increased CD, and the nerfed range, because they WERE needed. I would be fine with a longer CD on Sigil and Chains, to prevent the very fast multiple nukes that pre-patch Blanc was capable of. Now? She's a disabler and a last-hitter at best.


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Garion

Senior Member

11-04-2010

they might revert some changes and buff her a little

i just dont understand the requirement for a hot fix, she was OP a little, maybe near Xin (even though its more concerning the ult) OP, but not anywhere near Udyr OP.... i see no reason for a hot fix

o wait, its the community... Lux art QQ, Lux QQ (notice how the sudden out burst of Lux sux post is after Elementz updated his tier list?) LeBlanc QQ, Swain QQ, Whatever QQ, the forums are getting more and more.... whiny...

i mean, there is a lack of constructive feedbacks and most people just can be reasoned with if an issue is concerning their fav champ


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Arcadence

Senior Member

11-04-2010

Bump. This NEEDS to be seen, by Riot AND the community.


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Lance Eliot

Senior Member

11-04-2010

No thank you.... she's fine as is, and still superior to the other assassins.


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Mogunz

Senior Member

11-04-2010

What was the hotfix?


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redlightman

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Senior Member

11-04-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarionKaiser View Post
...but not anywhere near Udyr OP.... i see no reason for a hot fix
How is Udyr OP?


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Garion

Senior Member

11-04-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by *****Mongering View Post
How is Udyr OP?
........

uh.... i was referring to the pre-hotfix Udyr in case u're wondering


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Arcadence

Senior Member

11-04-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogunz View Post
What was the hotfix?
For Q-R the following changes:
Reduced the initial damage on Sigil of Silence to 70/110/150/190/230 from 80/125/170/215/260.
Reduced the cast range on Sigil of Silence to 700 from 750.
Increased the cooldown of Mimic to 40 seconds from 30 seconds at all ranks.
Reduced the damage amplification on Mimic to 10/25/40% from 20/30/40%. (The tooltip was incorrectly stating 20/35/50%).

To address her mana efficiency we made the following changes:
Increased the mana cost on Sigil of Silence to 70/75/80/85/90 from 60/65/70/75/80.
Increased the mana cost on Distortion to 80/90/100/110/120 from 60/70/80/90/100.
Increased the mana cost on Ethereal Chains to 80 from 70 at all ranks.
Reduced her mana per level to 50 from 56.

We made two minor changes in addition to the ones noted above. We reduced her armor per level by 0.5 since melee need to feel she's appropriately squishy, and we reduced the damage of Distortion and Ethereal Chains by 5 at all ranks to preserve Q's position as the highest damage output ability and not adjust skill choices.


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irspeshal

Senior Member

11-04-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by *****Mongering View Post
How is Udyr OP?
not is. was.

he and jax were hit with the nerfbat harder than any other champ.


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Mogunz

Senior Member

11-04-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulletr0k View Post
For Q-R the following changes:
Reduced the initial damage on Sigil of Silence to 70/110/150/190/230 from 80/125/170/215/260.
Reduced the cast range on Sigil of Silence to 700 from 750.
Increased the cooldown of Mimic to 40 seconds from 30 seconds at all ranks.
Reduced the damage amplification on Mimic to 10/25/40% from 20/30/40%. (The tooltip was incorrectly stating 20/35/50%).

To address her mana efficiency we made the following changes:
Increased the mana cost on Sigil of Silence to 70/75/80/85/90 from 60/65/70/75/80.
Increased the mana cost on Distortion to 80/90/100/110/120 from 60/70/80/90/100.
Increased the mana cost on Ethereal Chains to 80 from 70 at all ranks.
Reduced her mana per level to 50 from 56.

We made two minor changes in addition to the ones noted above. We reduced her armor per level by 0.5 since melee need to feel she's appropriately squishy, and we reduced the damage of Distortion and Ethereal Chains by 5 at all ranks to preserve Q's position as the highest damage output ability and not adjust skill choices.
I bought her on release but only got to play her today though. She's fun to play just doesn't fit all that well in the current meta game, or I just suck with her.


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