Journey Into The Freljord III: The Troll King

First Riot Post
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Ophirr

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muranodo View Post
You've stated that you never really liked Trundle besides his kit and the tragedy of his lore based off your comments. Or rather, I am inferring that since that's the only positive comments about Trundle that you've checked off (not really his individual personality, appearance, different from other champions). I explained before that's a perfectly legitimate stance because not all League of Legends players are cut from the same cloth.

I also never said all Trundle players hate the remake. I have as I have throughout the thread: expressed my discontent, mentioned the earlier promise (why Ironstylus responded to me once), and spoke on my general feel for gross, niche champions / monsters; I gave that with supportive evidence. They are removing what serves a smaller market of players. As such, they are not in conflict with a whole; they are still drastically changing a champion to the displeasure of a few. It also conflicts with Grumpy Monkey's earlier words. We can continue to squabble over whether the upset Trundle base is being too vocal on the matter; it's quite possible to deliver the fantasy you're wanting in another champion. There is no reason Trundle, specifically, had to be readjusted for this scenario. That's basic knowledge that both sides can admit to.

Secondly, I have never called him an epitome of perfection. I've called him niche and limited to a smaller player base. Riot promised diversity; I am seeing homogenization for an attempt to salvage him for a select few at the cost of a fair number of prior fans. The fact that my comments do not fall into simple downvotes shows me there's enough to balance it out in a positive manner. As with Karma, they are also willing to listen on the matter since there are legitimate fans. And I'm also pretty certain there are more devoted Trundle fans as the SSoTP matter popped up quite a bit over the last year alone versus legitimate Karma talk.

Getting back to the point: You're basically telling me to not voice my dissatisfaction because this Trundle suits your view. This Trundle does nothing for me as I bought into him for the original fantasy. You highly stress the kit's value for yourself (invoking the meta, for instance). Trundle being different on multiple facets is what attracted me; his kit came to me as secondary after his appearance, personality, and lore. If I wanted a buffer, fiercer jungler there are a variety of options. This Trundle is a shell of his former self; I intend fully to express that to Riot. I'm sorry you feel that I'm "harassing" Riot; I'm tried to remain quite civil while solely calling them out on their failure on this matter. If not, they wouldn't have bothered to reply to me in the first place.

I just find their handling of this manner to be completely slippery and arbitrary. As this problem could have been avoided with a simple visual update and exploring further troll themes via another champion. They created the drama themselves by doing this in secret and knowing it would incite a fan base. They said they learned their lessons from Karma about what fans value; they release Trundle who resembles pretty much none of his former self. There will be unrest. That is all.
Eh, I must have got my feelings about trundle's lore off incorrectly. In regards to Trundle's lore, I actually love the story (and have discussed it in more details in the lore section). The fact that he was chosen to uphold the entirety of his tribe's curse by his self, and didn't just give up and wallow around in his misery, but instead he went to the league of legends and was capable of going toe to toe to nightmares from the void, the best that demacia and noxus has to offer, and magical beings beyond mortal power is freaking awesome. I would read a 400 page book about it.

However, while his lore is extremely well written, it doesn't allow for much interaction between him and the other champions of LoL. It suffers from the syndrome of "oh hey, we can just insert this dude's back story and have him come from some place that no other champions come from and just have him fight in the league". I believe that this isn't healthy for the game as a whole and for his place in it, thus I welcome his inclusion into Friejlord, since it allows him to have links to Ashe, Tryndamere, Sejuani, and the upcoming Lissandra. And since now there is an entire faction that he represents, imagine the possible developments from this. Why are the trolls raiding the humans in Friejlord? Are they merely looking for supplies, defending their sacred ancestral homeland, or perhaps they're trying to expand, because of the growth and advancement of an actual troll empire under Trundle's rule? Basically, I see extremely high potential for his new place in the lore of Runeterra, and thus welcome the changes to his lore, even though his old lore wasn't necessarily bad, but perhaps too isolated.

In regards to his niche role in league as a gross champion/monster champion (even though I'd actually classify the monster role as more of void creatures, Urogt, and Skarner), is this niche ideal for Trundle? Wouldn't it be better to present the niche of the cursed, diseased, and disfigured individual as something that could be connected to the rest of Runeterra more easily? This could simply be a new Shadow Isle's champion, or perhaps something that can be the cause of extreme pollution from Zaun, much like Twitch albeit with far more serious consequences/issues. I also would like to suggest that Kog and Urgot aren't going to be changed, as Kog is one of the most loved champions in league and this gross/cuteness is extremely popular, in addition he has a well established connection to the world of Runeterra and other champions through his connection to the Void. And Urgot not only has relations to specific champions (Sion and Garen, for example) but he represents the dark, necromatic side of Noxus which is something that isn't well represented by the other champions besides Sion (who definitely needs a relaunch/hard core VU). I'd actually say his main issue is that his kit is balanced over how good he can be in the hands of a pro, thus new players often think he's weak.

You state that one of the main reasons you fell in love with Trundle is because of his appearance. Does the inclusion of the traditional Trundle skin help alleviate that issue? But besides that, there are two issues I'd like to address. One, I will admit that you are part of a large group of people with legitimate concerns and questions (which I may not personally agree with), and would like to apologize for my condescending tone that insinuated that you should stop expressing your views because they don't match my own. I'm sorry. However, I would also ask that you (not you personally, but the group of Trundle players that you represent) present your ideas as more of a constructive conversation such as this post that I'm responding to, instead of some of the very unconstructive Riot complaints that I see often in this thread.

But hey, at least both sides can agree that it's good that Riot is finally looking at Trundle, even if we don't agree with what extent they are doing so. And Happy Easter!


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StraTosSpeAr

Member

03-31-2013

Very disappointed in Riot with this. Karma's rework was disappointing as well. Yes, Karma is good now, but she's not Karma. It's a completely different champion. The same thing here. Riot is just deleting old champions that do have a following because they want to make some more bland/generic champions with a little more appeal. I see no upside to this rework. All Trundle needs is a tiny bit of love in terms of his abilities. His story and aesthetic is fantastic and very unique and should stay put.


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Slarg232

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamakazi Pope View Post
No one is saying they want him left how he is currently they are saying just do not reworking him.
Change him, but leave him the same?

HIs Traditional Skin might have Plague themed particles.


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Slarg232

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by StraTosSpeAr View Post
Very disappointed in Riot with this. Karma's rework was disappointing as well. Yes, Karma is good now, but she's not Karma. It's a completely different champion. The same thing here. Riot is just deleting old champions that do have a following because they want to make some more bland/generic champions with a little more appeal. I see no upside to this rework. All Trundle needs is a tiny bit of love in terms of his abilities. His story and aesthetic is fantastic and very unique and should stay put.
How so?

She uses Mantra. She relies on it to function well, and if you build Cool Down Reduction, she still gets two charges per team fight....


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Snes C

Senior Member

03-31-2013

I like the rework.


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Muranodo

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophirr View Post
Eh, I must have got my feelings about trundle's lore off incorrectly. In regards to Trundle's lore, I actually love the story (and have discussed it in more details in the lore section). The fact that he was chosen to uphold the entirety of his tribe's curse by his self, and didn't just give up and wallow around in his misery, but instead he went to the league of legends and was capable of going toe to toe to nightmares from the void, the best that demacia and noxus has to offer, and magical beings beyond mortal power is freaking awesome. I would read a 400 page book about it.

However, while his lore is extremely well written, it doesn't allow for much interaction between him and the other champions of LoL. It suffers from the syndrome of "oh hey, we can just insert this dude's back story and have him come from some place that no other champions come from and just have him fight in the league". I believe that this isn't healthy for the game as a whole and for his place in it, thus I welcome his inclusion into Friejlord, since it allows him to have links to Ashe, Tryndamere, Sejuani, and the upcoming Lissandra. And since now there is an entire faction that he represents, imagine the possible developments from this. Why are the trolls raiding the humans in Friejlord? Are they merely looking for supplies, defending their sacred ancestral homeland, or perhaps they're trying to expand, because of the growth and advancement of an actual troll empire under Trundle's rule? Basically, I see extremely high potential for his new place in the lore of Runeterra, and thus welcome the changes to his lore, even though his old lore wasn't necessarily bad, but perhaps too isolated.

In regards to his niche role in league as a gross champion/monster champion (even though I'd actually classify the monster role as more of void creatures, Urogt, and Skarner), is this niche ideal for Trundle? Wouldn't it be better to present the niche of the cursed, diseased, and disfigured individual as something that could be connected to the rest of Runeterra more easily? This could simply be a new Shadow Isle's champion, or perhaps something that can be the cause of extreme pollution from Zaun, much like Twitch albeit with far more serious consequences/issues. I also would like to suggest that Kog and Urgot aren't going to be changed, as Kog is one of the most loved champions in league and this gross/cuteness is extremely popular, in addition he has a well established connection to the world of Runeterra and other champions through his connection to the Void. And Urgot not only has relations to specific champions (Sion and Garen, for example) but he represents the dark, necromatic side of Noxus which is something that isn't well represented by the other champions besides Sion (who definitely needs a relaunch/hard core VU). I'd actually say his main issue is that his kit is balanced over how good he can be in the hands of a pro, thus new players often think he's weak.

You state that one of the main reasons you fell in love with Trundle is because of his appearance. Does the inclusion of the traditional Trundle skin help alleviate that issue? But besides that, there are two issues I'd like to address. One, I will admit that you are part of a large group of people with legitimate concerns and questions (which I may not personally agree with), and would like to apologize for my condescending tone that insinuated that you should stop expressing your views because they don't match my own. I'm sorry. However, I would also ask that you (not you personally, but the group of Trundle players that you represent) present your ideas as more of a constructive conversation such as this post that I'm responding to, instead of some of the very unconstructive Riot complaints that I see often in this thread.

But hey, at least both sides can agree that it's good that Riot is finally looking at Trundle, even if we don't agree with what extent they are doing so. And Happy Easter!
You've clarified your feelings on the lore then.

On the matter of the disconnect of his lore, and the convenient League of Legends excuse, you've heard the obvious "Riot didn't try." That's why you can give countless examples of why not condense Malphite, Taric, Skarner, etc. I'm not saying to be unexcited about the development of Freljord, but there is still no reason why it had to be Trundle. You can argue back that there's no reason why it shouldn't be Trundle because there's a gap; it's generally weak care of their universe as a whole; they're simply making a step for a more recognizable location because they already themed it.

The League of Legends existing was never a problem. It's why the JoJ is so beloved; it's still invoked by many fans wanting it to be brought back. Although it could be lazily used as a catch-all, it also allowed for very interesting stories in its own right. The idea of factions solely developed by the evolution of the champion base; the added necessity of it is because they failed to develop the sub-factions. Trundle being isolated wasn't a problem, originally. They perpetrated the problem by their own measure. So, I'll make the final point here on the matter of lore: The problem is not the immediate assumption that the lore will be bad. However, the problem is the drastic change to Trundle that was done without any effort to fix him prior. I gave the example of just Trundle and Skarner, and the relationship there. Think of some of the other very minor story tidbits developed by the League of Legends. Let's take two old JoJ headlines: "Gragas Partners with Singed in Business Venture" or "Warwick Escapes Kidnapper." Let's also take a snippet from the mailbag on the matter of Skarner and Taric. Taric's response to Skarner's arrival: “I have come across many kinds of magic during my time in Runeterra. Until the arrival of Skarner, no magic in this land has struck so closely to that of my home. It is a bit presumptuous, but I like to imagine that perhaps our worlds share a deeper connection than we think.”

It's very easy to develop stories simply by the diversity of the League of Legends characters in design and playing off parallels and what makes members obtuse to one another. Earlier cases of Cho'Gath and Kog'Maw were based off their 'grossness' as members and how it clashed with, say, summoners alone (the fun of spittle in storytelling). The infamous Shaco interview and stabbing of a JoJ reporter gave him quite a bit of personality. They chose a very drastic and safe overhaul rather than play with their diversity. It's the same matter they've been called out on with the passionate, passionate, passionate Katarina lore rewrite to give an example. One of the main complaints at the initial relaunch of that lore was that she seemed more a girl than a woman. She didn't seem the one who stood as a global speaker for Noxus against Karma. But it was just another "story." The political element of the League has pretty much been hammered out for the sake of more character-driven conflicts. Karma becoming a more hands on combatant in the universe is another indicator of that with her relaunch.

So, I refer to my bolded. There was no reason to do it with Trundle. It's lazy and for a quick fix rather than full-on attention to developing their universe. It's why in champion creation, they're now having to pay more attention to some of the bigger sub-regions because they've become underdeveloped. See Zaun (Zac), Freljord (Lissandra, Sejuani relaunch), and probably something in the future for Bandle City and Bilgewater. I don't see it as healthier in what they are doing. I'm seeing more of continual bandage fixes on their universe based off the lore being put on hold. Had stories continued about Trundle, had his kit been paid more attention to, and had he received proper skins (joke ones, for instance)---I don't see this happening at all.

On the matter of monster champions and gross ones, let's break down your questions.

Is this niche ideal for Trundle? - This boils down to whether or not you value overall diversity within the context of your game. Because you first have to answer the question of whether "niche" is ever ideal. Riot has responded yes in the past; their actions are not showing it. Niche is also a bit broad based off their discussions. Orianna, Lulu, and Nautilus all can fall under niche in comparison. Niche in this sense is super niche. Gross, disgusting, and the kind of champion that you have to relate to based off multiple levels to fully appreciate. Trundle did this for certain fans in the same way Urgot did. There's a charge of 'beautification' and 'handsome focus' going on in League of Legends right now. Trundle, like Urgot, represented the nastier parts of the world amongst the edges of it. This occurs in other avenues via 'cool' nasty in the form of Brand and Nocturne. However, he along with really only Urgot embraced a kind of unease and the darker underbelly of the world. It's why Trundle's lore is so iconic; it's why you appreciate Urgot (more so than Sion) in the representation of necromancy in the world. Trundle spoke of the ancient world and the rougher edges of it. It's the same kind of unsettling taboo that you'll see in bits of lore like with Ryze's judgment. And he represented it well. Why is there a need to step away from that? Again, it boils down to the matter of niche and where you stand. You're being very selective on the Trundle matter yet you're not okay with Twitch, Kog'Maw, and Urgot being changed. The fact that Trundle is being changed to such an extent has Urgot fans worried because Trundle received the same promises. There has to be some level of preservation and a stance for where the line is on these champions. The world is diverse; I continue to wish for it to be diverse even with the niche that existed.

Wouldn't it be better to present the niche of the cursed, diseased, and disfigured individual as something that could be connected to the rest of Runeterra more easily? This could simply be a new Shadow Isle's champion, or perhaps something that can be the cause of extreme pollution from Zaun, much like Twitch albeit with far more serious consequences/issues.

You're asking, essentially, for a delayed (perhaps indefinitely) solution to the problem. You're also asking players to purchase another champion for their fantasy---and saying Riot can ignore the present Trundle that they barely touched after release. It's really no different in the end than current Trundle players wishing for this ice troll to be another troll. He can fulfill the same story purposes, he can expand Freljord, and in the end the story will continue. It's just a difference of time and immediate cost. They can make Trundle fit their world. They can give him connections. They have chosen not to. You mention he doesn't fit; have they tried to make him fit, really? Have they done any lore ventures to tie him into the universe? Have they failed miserably? There's no risk. It all boils down to the same for Riot, though. Note in Grumpy Monkey's initial reply that he mentioned it'd be cool to have a "disease mage, or a pestilent zombie/corpse?" --- You can spread disease without being diseased yourself. I'd expect the first diseased mage type; we've touched on zombies with Brand's legendary. I don't feel they'll have the same impact as Trundle because he literally visually represents his lore every single moment on the Fields of Justice. He's just now going to be... an ice troll. Yeah. Perhaps, it'll give them a chance to in the future "undo" this potential mistake with Trundle after his popularity flounders after relaunch. Still---why, again? For present cost efficiency. Fans are mad with reason.

On the matter of Kog'Maw, Urgot, and Sion. Urgot and Sion have loose connections because they're tied to the primary city-states in the game. There's not a deep level of connection there. Swain and Jarvan IV have far more development. Sion was more a backdrop for Katarina's timeline, honestly. The last time I heard Sion mentioned was when Darius was released and in his Q&A within lore when a player asked how Sion would see him. Suffice it to say, it was pretty inconsequential. Kog'Maw's connections are incredibly loose as well. But in each, they have connections simply by what group they were placed into. Trundle's region could have been developed. It hasn't been.

You state that one of the main reasons you fell in love with Trundle is because of his appearance. Does the inclusion of the traditional Trundle skin help alleviate that issue?

Not really. Fans have mentioned that the traditional skin does very little to recapture the old fantasy. He lacks his persistent buzzing gross effect, he's not lanky, none of his proportions are represented as they were (he had both serious and joke character in him like with Cho'Gath and Mundo), and the size difference changes his scraggly underdog want. More in-depth responses on this have been given but these are the main matters. They also didn't really improve his diseased look. That's what players expected with the original VU talk. It'd be more conveyed. It's not. So there's the basic mark against him not looking as he did and no chance was given for a visual improvement of his gross effect with a mended kit to be even considered. It'll potentially give me an option away from the ice troll theme; it's presently not Trundle in soul to me.

But besides that, there are two issues I'd like to address. One, I will admit that you are part of a large group of people with legitimate concerns and questions (which I may not personally agree with), and would like to apologize for my condescending tone that insinuated that you should stop expressing your views because they don't match my own. I'm sorry. However, I would also ask that you (not you personally, but the group of Trundle players that you represent) present your ideas as more of a constructive conversation such as this post that I'm responding to, instead of some of the very unconstructive Riot complaints that I see often in this thread.

There's the issue of nonconstructive feedback always. I'll invoke Riot and their own comments on the matter. Even if it's not said in a civil matter, they can gauge from their feelings why the audience is feeling that way. Lots of players are very hurt. Lots feel very ignored. This isn't just the matter of a skin. It's a relaunch to a very, very underrepresented character type within League. Karma, on the other hand, at least stayed within Ionia; they tried to capture some of her spiritual leader feelings while making her more... suited for a combat/PvP-based game. Trundle is getting essentially deleted because he's moving to a new region, has a new body type, and his theme is gone for the sake of ice.

I try to enforce more constructive criticism; the disgusted and upset are going to fuel more deliberately edgy comments. The fact that there is that much comment really... suggests a larger problem on the whole.

But hey, at least both sides can agree that it's good that Riot is finally looking at Trundle, even if we don't agree with what extent they are doing so. And Happy Easter!

They can agree on that, yes, with reservations. Happy Easter back to you.


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Testifyer

Member

03-31-2013

There is a lore flaw... Without trundles curse, he dies. As did the rest of his troll camp...


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Stampedeo

Member

03-31-2013

this looks great. i love trundle hopefully wont thing im trolling when i pick him.


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Slarg232

Senior Member

03-31-2013

The thing I hope to god he keeps is his De-buffs.

SERIOUSLY Riot, Debuffs aren't "Anti Fun". Some people LOVE playing Debuffers (Trundle, Urgot).

The fact that those champs are UNDERDEVELOPED is why they aren't played, not because they aren't good.


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Mad Hit Monkey

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Part of the problem I've had with many of the comments in this thread, partly explaining why several of my earlier responses here towards them, is that there is the continued assumption that his gameplay is being changed.

Let's for a moment set aside the thematic, lore, and visual issues. I'm done talking about that, I'm sticking to the Gameplay here.

With regard to the gameplay, people enter, see the original posts, and immediately make the assumption that his gameplay is going to be radically altered, when if they look at the Red Posts, they would see this is not the case.

The gameplay changes are to Quality of Life. Riot has made a point of stating that they're satisfied with how he plays, the changes in this regard are to improve upon them. Maybe a buff here, a nerf there, a tweak.

What I'm trying to say is that whether Trundle is a scrawny diseased ugly runt, or a beefy rugged icy king, that gameplay is going to stick.