@Riot What direction is Shaco going?

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AP YI

Junior Member

11-03-2010

Hello and welcome to the Shaco Discussion thread! I will be outlining many of Shaco's strengths and weakness' and give explanations and insight on the many tweaks and peaks that Riot has done and why myself and many others are sad of what has happened to our lovable Jester.


There are bullet points and a TL;DR in this post. It is a long post and is open for discussion.




I will put out firstly, before anything, that I would personally like to see a more direct vision of Shaco's role as a whole. As it stands now his current role is something created and held together by better players than myself. Its called the, "Grab red as fast as possible and gank the squishiest person possible and jungle until I can't gank anymore" Role. It lasts until mid game at best.

I am by no means asking for large changes, buffs or nerfs. Just some pokes in the right direction.


This post is from my own experience and many of those I play with. You are free to agree or disagree and I freely encourage thoughtful discussion.[/I]



I realize that Shaco represents many misgivings for many players. I have been playing since November or December of last year, and I remember when Shaco was released. He was a powerhouse and in the right hands nigh uncatchable / unkillable while killing at will.


To start, I came from a dota background and was largely experienced at LoL yet when they soon began releasing new champions. However when Shaco released, I found Shaco to be unbearable to play against. Between Deceiving in and placing Jotb's while stealthed WITH Shiv not breaking stealth it was a nightmare. (My kayle cried, this was when she had little synergy and was a one trick pony to give you an idea of the time period.)


Times have changed and new champions arise and champions have been buffed / nerfed. Shaco seems to not have a place outside of his strong early game ganking and some mid game presence causing extreme caution from the enemy team. (I still get the raging beast rearing it's ugly head on occasion when playing against shaco).


Early game he can still be extremely scary netting in some early kills for his team. However, once the nitty gritty comes and it goes into teamfight / push stages of the game, he doesn't have a place and I'll provide a bullet list why (in my experience).

  • Strong points

    -Strong early game presence.
    Shaco single handedly forces defensive play in all lanes and the jungle because no one knows where he will pop out and is god tier until around 7-9'ish giving very high chances of multiple kills.


    -Almost guaranteed firstblood with red buff.
    Shaco guarantee's early kills with red buff due to it slowing and stacking with 2 shivs slow making it highly frustrating to be on the receiving end of a 2 second gank from 100-0%.


    -Excellent ganker / jungler downing dragon / baron early.
    There are not many who can be downing dragon / baron as soon as they spawn. Shaco is one of them and is one of the best. Soloing baron at 13-16 is no joke.


    -Incredibly difficult to gank / catch
    When good decisions are made and thought through due to the nature of how his skills double as damage or escape abilities.

    I find this a very defining point in Shaco's skillset. He has the choice of running away or dealing damage. It opens up a lot of opportunity of play and thus can be very fun / unfun on the players / opponents end.


    -Very powerful skillset
    Shaco's damage potential between Jitb interrupts / nests, Deceive backstab crits and 2shiv nuke / finisher with balanced synergy between either AD or AP is very high.
    This allows players to choose any of the following generic Damage builds, AP builds or even hybrid builds opening many personal choices in play.


  • Weakpoints

    -Diminishing mid / late game
    Shaco tapers off as a threat mid game to late game due to his scaling / nature of easily identifiable clone / decieve locations. Shaco is incredibly squishy and sports one of the most abysmal attack speeds in the game which he desperately needs to be effective.


    -Unfixed or ignored bugs / mechanics.
    Shaco is too easily identifiable between himself and his clone. This really diminishes the survivability that it offers only magnifying his abysmal team fight presence.
    Example: That one has red buff, its him. That one moved first, thats the real one. Teamfight started;begin generic aoe spam, shaco dies / nearly dies needs to run ect. You know most of these and more
    .


    -Jack in the box (Jitb) AoE killable / ignorable (Walk away)
    Shaco brings little contribution to a teamfight outside of preset Jitb's that can be AoE'd or walked away from which appears to be a bug more than anything. Teemo's shrooms can't be aoe'd and they don't even give money anymore. Thus why should Shaco suffer when no one else does? Jotb are also directly related to Shaco's ability to jungle early game and it can be thrown off with a quick ghost in and out by his jungle spot effectively crippling him.


    -Risk outweighs reward (teamfight)
    Shaco must decide to either walk in directly and fight melee saving his deceive for escaping or using it to initiate leaving him in an awkward position upon appearing. The Shaco player doesn't have the choice to be safe in group fights because his skillset screams assassin which would be fine if he could do so. But he cannot down somone quick enough without being bursted to death either accidentally by AoE or because he sticks out like a sore thumb. Thus he is punished because of his skillset leaving it up to the enemy to NOT react, which is absurd.


    -Damage skills are his escape skills (con side)

    Shaco's ability to bring damage is directly related to his ability to escape causing confusion in how he should be used.
    Players thoughts: "Should I decieve in and get a backstab crit for garunteed damage doing my job, or do I run in and hope I don't get focused before being able to attack a squishy and solidify an escape so I don't give up money?" Thus why people are confused by characters pulled in so many directions like Jax / Mordekaiser's design direction and rightly so.


    -Absolutely requires red buff to function (see below bullet)
    Shaco has to burst the opponent down before they can react, otherwise the shaco player is now punished for doing his job and can be taken out fairly simply due to just generic "q,e,w,r" combos.

    -Too many stats to itemize.
    Firstly, to optimally gain damage on Shaco, you need lots of attack-speed because Madreds is a core item.

    But you need life-steal to offset his squishiness so he can jungle and proceed ganking.

    However you need damage to actually be a threat and to utilize your Deceives scalability.

    You also need Crit and Crit damage so you can be more reliable than a one - two skill combo for kills (Deceive + shiv)

    Therefore you need to capitalize on keeping the enemy in reach with a slow (red buff)

    Furthermore you also need large amounts of move-speed so you can stay on your enemy or traverse across the map and participate in ganking / pushing / jungling attempts.

    But in order to contribute to a team fight consisiting of more then 5 people total, you need to build enough resistances / health so you can actually participate in the team fight without getting instagibbed.

    Thus you need an incredibly large amounts of farm which you realize would be better spent on a more generic assassin / ganker like Ezreal, MF, WW ECT. that don't require over 9000 different stats to be average with and are effective at all stages of the game.

Conclusion: Shaco is pulled in too many different direction's / roles without being able to fill them well enough to be effective. He needs items to function, but he needs farm / ganks to get those items. If he doesn't get fed he is dead weight to his team. If he gets fed early, he must continue to keep getting fed to stay ahead.


The TL;DR is the bullet's. The explanation is below them. I think its easy enough to read.

Mini TL;DR
-Scaling blocks shaco's mid / late game
-Skillset encourages confusion
-Is easily shutdown with coordination (early / late)
-Requires too many different stats (AS, AD, Crit, CritD, MS, CDR, Health, Resistances for just physical damage / AP, MP, CDR, Mana, Mp5, for straight AP)
-Must stay ahead early/mid to be any marginal threat through the course of the game
-Requires enemies to not pay attention react / react poorly to be effective in most situations



Therefore, in closing, I feel that Shaco's Cons outweigh his Pro's as it stands currently. I tried to make my points as unbiased as possible, however there is no way to rid bias completely. Shaco is certainly dangerous, especially when played well. However its my view that Shaco lacks a real role for his team that is leaving him undesirable.


You may agree or disagree at your choosing. This is a feedback thread and Discussion is encouraged. I must digress this is from MY vantage point and experience that I have shared with many both higher and below myself.


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AP YI

Junior Member

11-03-2010

I found this just a little while ago and would like to take a couple points into consideration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
This is a point of contention actually. We find that champions are more fun when they do specific things well. No one really likes boring champions who are "pretty good" at everything. Basically, when a champion is OP you have to look for places to nerf that don't disrupt the gameplay that makes them fun. Look at Shaco for example.

We gave deceive a longer cooldown and at some point a shorter duration. He still keep the feel of "I jump in from nowhere and crit you in the back" which players find fun, but we get to help remove the running away case, which just feels cheesy.

-(I feel right here that this was done half right and half wrong. Yes, it was wrong for Shaco to be able to Deceive in, drop a jitb, back crit you, shiv you, blind + slow you, Auto attack you 2x, Deceive again and finish you off or run away with no danger to himself. This was fixed by making Jitb break stealth and flash breaking stealth. I accept the longer CD as it was still not risky enough to jump in and blow a load only to get out again. I could even accept the Shiv nerf, its still very strong. However when you add all these things together AND include a shorter invis time that is countered by oracles and experience, compounded with easy detection between real shaco and clone, its too much.)

We shaved off some damage on backstab. You still feel the incentive to get in behind people, but it's an easy place to hit damage.

-( I think its ok to lower some of the damage. He still is doing fine with red buff (why should he be so reliant on it?) and garuntee's early kills. However now we have nerfed all his core moves already, some multiple times.)

We nerfed the clone to deal significantly reduced damage to towers. We also fixed a bug where his clone was proccing Madred's twice by itself every swing.

-(Well, I can understand that Shaco was doing too well at backdooring / pushing. I mean he was overshadowing Sivir who was the queen at pushing and her only niche. The madred bug fix is 100% understandable. However his clone is still easily identifiable form shaco as it doesn't share buffs with him. (Red, blue, Baron ect))

These are all places that hit his power without affecting what makes Shaco fun.

-(This is where I might point out that Phreak is wrong, at least in my view.)

(Now Shaco doesn't have a role anymore because all he his roles he had before was taken from him leaving him without purpose or direction. That was his role, the jack of all trades. Now he is an empty husk grasping at what he may still do for his team without being a liability after 20 minutes have passed.
"Am I supposed to push? Am I supposed to jungle? Am I supposed to gank? Do I gank by myself, or with a friend? Am I supposed to counter jungle? Am I map control? Am I supposed to commit to teamfights or am I to wait for cleanup? Will my team die if I don't participate? Where do I fit in any meta-game? How do I function with other heroes? What do I do for my team?)
These are some of my concerns that Phreak touched on when talking about Ezreal nerfs. I think we can all agree they may of went a little too much with it and need to bring him back on par with everyone else by at the very least "define his role."

If a red happens to pass by here, I very much would appreciate what your opinion is on Shaco and power and role he presents?


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AP YI

Junior Member

11-03-2010

Bump for justice...


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InKoHerent

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Senior Member

11-03-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by AP YI View Post
Soloing baron at 13-16 is no joke.
Teach me for +1

What items would he have to do this


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AP YI

Junior Member

11-03-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by southernX View Post
Teach me for +1

What items would he have to do this
It has a direct correlation to how long the game has gone when he reaches those levels, but the minimum items he needs are

1. Madreds Bloodletter
2. Wriggles Lantern
3. Red buff (Lizard)
4. Red potion

You will also need smite and use your clone / Jitb / deceive. It can get tricky. Its usually safer to try it around 15-16, but I have seen a 14 baron and heard of a 13 baron from a friend. 13 is much too gutsy for me.

In this aspect, Shaco is quite powerful. I actually recall that the 13 baron might of been where madreds double procced on your clone, so it may not hold true anymore nor do I pretend it was ever safe at that level.


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AP YI

Junior Member

11-04-2010

Hey whats that... *bump*


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AP YI

Junior Member

11-04-2010

Oh, there you are


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AP YI

Junior Member

11-04-2010

Hm, get back up there and do some work!


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SoBeNirvana

Adjudicator

11-04-2010

They said they're not touching him, but they want to decide either to take away his jungling ability, or take away his stealth, before they fix him, because they've decided that stealth Champions shouldn't be able to jungle.


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KillbotExtreme

Senior Member

11-04-2010

1. Stop this nonsense bumping.

2. "Shaco is too easily identifiable between himself and his clone. This really diminishes the survivability that it offers only magnifying his abysmal team fight presence.
Example: That one has red buff, its him. That one moved first, thats the real one. Teamfight started;begin generic aoe spam, shaco dies / nearly dies needs to run ect. You know most of these and more.".
Don't have a buff when you ulti then. Use ALT-Right click to move the clone first. Also if you click on the fake, it has no items.... another easy way to find the real one.


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