Eleisa's Miracle

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Saedrenel

Member

03-14-2013

I am having a very hard time understanding why this isn't used on mana hungry champions like Kha'zix, or on champions that naturally benefit from having a philosopher's in lane. It is extremely cheap on gold, lets you be spam-happy in lane, and by the time 25 minutes have passed in the game you will be level 15 and can upgrade your philo to free up build space.

Roughly the time anyone could get a Philosophers unconditionally is ~6 minutes into the game, giving you at worst, 19-21 minutes of passive gold gain. If you upgrade it to Eleisa's, which for 400 gold is a pretty cheap upgrade, then that 1100 expense over time has turned into an expense of around 500, versus a manamune at an expense of around 2100 which will be giving you what, 30 attack damage?

Granted, the argument for manamune is the larger mana pool and mana regen, in addition to the attack damage and the bonus single target DPS from the passive... But you could also just buy and Eleisa's and free up that build slot for something that gives you even more damage or more survivability.

There's a reason people hated manamune; It locked you into a certain build path with less flexibility, it gives you drastically less damage than other item choices, and it is very much not cost efficient for the AD it provides you, and a huge mana pool is very very gimmicky. The only reason it is considered cost efficient is the mana pool, but why not just put that extra 1600 gold (cost of manamune - expense of eleisia's) you now get to put towards health, armor, magic resist, or attack damage, which will greatly increase your burst potential and strength in team fights.


Please no troll comments without hearing me out on this, I want a legitimate argument against buying Miracle versus something like manamune, and why to not get it on other champions that benefit from a philosophers like Olaf, Irelia, Kha'zix, or Fiora.


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awkwardbowman

Senior Member

03-14-2013

it gives you no damage or anything else except regen and has no build path except regen, which allows some spam, but most people seem to like some form of damage.


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Saedrenel

Member

03-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by awkwardbowman View Post
it gives you no damage or anything else except regen and has no build path except regen, which allows some spam, but most people seem to like some form of damage.
Right, but you now have effectively a 7th item slot that the regen goes in, since it disappears after 3 levels and applies all the stats directly to the champion. Regen is also much more noticable in the early game, and despite the falloff the mana regen will increase average end-game mana regen by ~45%, which is very significant on a mana-hungry champion like Kha'zix, and as stated, will allow an extra damage item; changing the +50 ad from muramana to maybe +100 from another bloodthirster


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BaronVonPwny

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Senior Member

03-15-2013

I don't really understand why you would compare a support item to a high damage caster item. The two fill very different rolls. The reason someone such as Kha'zix would not buy Elysia's is because it is wasted money. With 1100 you could get ~30 damage (stat cost wise, not item wise). An assassin has no use for health or mana regeneration late game, and if you are taking any of the summoners that it effects you aren't playing him right. Even if it is 'free stats' because it becomes a passive, those are not stats most people need.
As for saving a slot by removing the need for Manamune, in place for a Bloodthirster in your example... he does not need Manamune. Low mana pool does not mean you buy mana or mana regen, it means you manage your spells properly and by damage to make sure they count. That is essentially the trade off for an assassin at any higher level of play.
Essentially the reason mana hungry champs don't buy it is because the +7 mana regeneration from philosiphers stone, which as you said you would want to hold onto through laning phase, does not help. No one would buy a support item as an assassin when there are equivilant, and more relevant items tailored towards themselves.
Elysia's Miracle gives sustain.
Assassins need burst damage.
The two are basically exclusive from each other.
Don't remain in the mind set of '3 gp/10 items top lane' from last season, because it isn't worth it anymore. You can get all the sustain in lane you need from potions for a cheaper price.


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Saedrenel

Member

03-15-2013

I remain in the mindset of gold efficiency and a strong laning phase, and 9 mp5 makes an enormous difference in my honest opinion. Have you played Kha'zix? His W eats up so much mana and is only a reliable farming, clear, and harassment tool if you max it first, which increases it's mana cost by 10 per level. Harassment is also mitigated by the time between poking when they are chugging pots and not sustaining damage. Being spam-happy is generally a strong attribute; if you can remain this way reliably from early to late game, is that not a good thing to do?

We can theorycraft all we want, but lets be honest, being able to spam is generally better than not being able to spam, and can put intense pressure on your opponent's laning phase. On top of that, you ignored my argument for the gold efficiency of eleisa's completely, and still calculated the 1100 as a flat 30 damage loss, which is flat out wrong. The biggest expense is the 700 for the early philosophers, which has its advantages and disadvantages. Nothing is optimal, and you cant calculate out your mana usage to the dot; you always need to have your escape available, you would LIKE to harass if you can in general, and if you have an advantage of first blood, you can rush your philo and be back at an even lane while getting passive gold that will easily cover wards and increase your gold gains over your lane opponent.
The idea behind it is the snowball; If you get a philo, and then your next couple of items will have significant influence on the damage that your harassing puts out, you can SPAM your harassing because of the bonus mana regen.
Another argument for this is wave-clear in late game. Kha'zix W, if defending or sieging a tower before a teamfight, can easily push up minions and harass the enemy team. What happens if you dont have manamune? You can do this about, what, 8 times? Then what happens when the fight rolls around, little mana for the ability spamming in the teamfight.
I've had this happen to me too many times, and maybe it's just my playstyle, but I find eleisa's more beneficial than not in my spam-happy bruiser builds.
I pretty much only build it for top, people underestimate philo very heavily. The additional advantage is you can now move three mastery points out of utility, because the eleisa's path gives plenty of mana regen for the laning phase and additional passive gold regeneration; You will feel the pain of that early philo less as the lane drags into 13, 14 minutes, and the additional mana regen translates into the ability to utilize W more often for the sustain. Trades can be won more easily in the long run, warding is less taxing, sustaining in the lane when out of pots becomes significantly easier...

As for the burst vs sustain comment, Kha'zix is a very flexible character naturally, and if playing him maxing W I will always build this item, because W is focused on farming, harass, and sustain, all things that philo will help achieve and synergize well with. If I'm playing Kha'zix and focusing on his more burst-filled maxing of Q-E, I skip this **** all together and start a flask/pots, because I'm going to be up in the enemy's face all of the time and the potions will be used to great effect. You will use W for mostly the burst of sustain to come out on top in a trade or to barely outlive an opponent for firstblood.

I've given my point, and I respect your opinion; this item is definitely not for everyone. But being I'm tired of investing points into the utility tree that would be better placed in the offensive tree to hit the bonus armor pen and the bonus damage, I'm going to continue using this as a gold-efficient and spam-friendly item for my top laning. I just want others to understand that the item is in fact usable. I calculated one thing; gold efficiency. Everything else is stated from me actually playing and testing the viability of Eleisa's, experiencing its effects on a passive lane, on a hyperagressive lane, and on a jungle-camped lane. I've found it's snowballing effectiveness for my playstyle to greatly benefit my contribution to the team.