How to counter Xin Jungle, a hero rises!

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Great Pyrenees

Senior Member

03-13-2013

So for those of you who dont know me I would like to say hello ).

Xin Zhao is the most popular Jungle Champion today (J4 is close). With tons of cc, dmg and a great initiate it is easy to see why. How do you counter someone with a great initiate? With a well placed trap!

Today in Champ select I played my #1 toon Heimer. Having heard of the Koreans recently jungling him (and with a lot of s2 jungle heim experience) I was not chagrined when my team wanted me to pick a jungler. I locked in Heim to many a naysayer on my team.

Heim's first clear is the crucial 'soft' stage for him. After the first clear he is far and away the fastest jungler in the game. My team helped me with blue and I rushed the first red. Because lets face it if I was Xin I would have tried to gank me at my red for refresher buffs.

Then I began hardcore farm mode. I got some wards and did not fret when Xin stole the second blue spawn. Because the #1 rule of Heimer jungle is DO NOT FIGHT XIN alone in the jungle. I strategically counterwarded and from that point on I snowballed the entire jungle taking the 3rd blue from his team and EVERY blue on the map thereafter. I never once lost a red on our side. I casually soloed dragon at lvl 10 (while their Xin starved at lvl 8 praying for a gank).

So how does Heim counter Xin? Xin is often THE initiation for his team. Heim strategically places turrets behind his team waiting for that very engage. Every single team fight went like this Xin engaged then immediatly dies. J4 top engaged then immediatly died. Our team mops up the squishies.

Despite me never ganking a single lane. Despite our team being down 4 kills to 14. I starved their team and their jungler of CS and Buffs. And since their team wouldnt engage without his initiation he played right into my hands every time.

Perhaps the meta of Heimer jungle has finally arrived, try out his mid-late game clear times and you will see why. I am on the edge of even saying he brings far more to a team as a jungler than as a mid laner. Because he is a utility mage he will never be able to strait burst someone like a Leblanc. However what he does have is a very specific set of skills. Skills that on the right team (A team playing the long game) could lead to many successful counter-initiates, traps and baits.

The hero of this story was lvl 18 while his nearest peer was 16, with 180 cs (100 more than xin). So the next time you face the ever popular initiate jungler remember that if you have a big pair of brass ones a herodinger can rise!


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TheFriendlyUncle

Senior Member

03-13-2013

..... longest troll lmao


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Great Pyrenees

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFriendlyUncle View Post
..... longest troll lmao
Well im not the best, but if you LoLking me you will see in ranked I play Heimer 80% of the time, and have a 100% positive KDA as him. So its not trolling to enjoy a Champion and play him well. Oh and I went 3-4-20 in the jungle a exceptional score.


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totalwar235

Senior Member

03-13-2013

actually this really makes sense. i recenty picked up xin to see how he played and how to counter him and i was think a cho(or mundo) jungler could do it just by jungle invasion, steal all his buffs and gank him in his own jungle at times. but heimer does seem like a good choice also


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Madraac

Senior Member

03-14-2013

I love Heimer, and I have seen people run him in the jungle, but he seems ill prepared for it. Do you level his abilities any differently than normal?

I started playing him mid as I have been getting forced to mid and not a solid mid player, as I prefer top or jungle, unless I can actualy grab Mal or Ali and run them support. The downside, is that I have seen many of my teams go almost all AD due to people playing Talon or Kha at times, or a Jayce hybrid. If this happens, I normally end up switching to an AP Udyr, but he is not a great ganker unless he gets an early lead.


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Great Pyrenees

Senior Member

03-14-2013

[QUOTE=Madraac;35585560]I love Heimer, and I have seen people run him in the jungle, but he seems ill prepared for it. Do you level his abilities any differently than normal? [QUOTE]

Madraac you asked the right person about Hiemer.

For Jungle: Run all flat armor runes with 6% lifesteal quints. (He is so squishy he needs every ounce of armor in jungle). Go 0-21-9 masteries. As for abilities its Q, W, Q, E, Q, R. Basically max turrets first, QQ missles second and E is your cc. Teleport and Smite.

Jungle Path: Wolves, Blue, Wraiths, Red, Golems, Wraiths = lvl 4 around the 4 min mark. It is important to note you will hit 4 before most lanes. Perfect time for a Teleport gank on bottom or top if they warded like they SHOULD have.

Item path: Machete into Madrids (Never upgrade after this). 5 pots to start.
Sorc Shoes with alclarity buff. (Mobility also a solid choice).
First major item = Rylies CS (Slow is nice, AP is nice, Health is nice).
Second = Liandries (Synergy with Rylies = hp eating machine, Hps, Pen, AP).
Third = Rod of Ages (Hps, Mana, AP).
Fourth = Rabadons Deathcap (Ap heaven)
Last Item = Your choice I reccomend Zonias but I pick GA

Strategy: Get your team to protect you on your WHOLE first clear, Blue and Red, this is your most vulnerable time. Get your team ready for a team fight at second blue respawn. This is the most logical time for a counter jungle. Buy a ward, place it at their blue, take their blue on the 3rd respawn until game is over. Basically farm, buy oracles and deny enemy jungler as much a possible.

For Mid: Flat AP quints, Mpen reds, Flat AP yellos, Scaling AP blues. Go 21-0-9masteries. As for abilities its Q, W, Q, E, Q, R. Basically max turrets first, QQ missles second and E is your cc. Teleport and Heal.

Mid Strat: Place a turret in mid BEFORE you go help leash wolves and blue. While your leashing and the enemy is leashing your turret will kill 3-6 minions helping you push the lane and get cs. Strat varies based on aggression level of mid and jungle. If they are not aggressive push down the tower within the first 10 mins. If they are aggressive freeze the lane between the turret and bush entrance. Your turrets can and will stop a force of 3 enemy team mates if you avoid being ganked.

Item Build: Sorc Shoes with distortion (Teleport in to gank DO NOT ROAM to gank). Unholy grail (Maxes your CDR, gives tons of mana). Rylies, liandries, Rabadons, GA or Zonias.

Team fight strat. You are not a burst mage, you are a utility counter initiate mage. If you live long enough you will produce exceptional dmg. Place turrets in front of team fights if they have NO initiate, behid team if they do have initiate. Set up turrets in key locations for team ganks (Dragon bush, Baron Bush etc etc). The goal of a Heim mid is to farm safe and to turn all team fights into a win after a initiation. The ONLY way to accomplish this is to NOT DIE.


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Madraac

Senior Member

03-14-2013

I will have to try out the jungle option in some unranked games and see how it works for me.

As for Team fights / mid, I totally agree and Heim is such a lane bully the only issue I have is pushing too far as it is so easy. I found that ifI drop a turret into one of the river bushes it gives me a free ward and keeps from over extending. That leaves the other to push or maintain the lane.

I love the idea of dropping a turret before the leash to try to capture some minion kills while leashing. That is a fantastic idea that I will put to use whenever pushed into mid.


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Great Pyrenees

Senior Member

03-14-2013

I have played about 1000 games with Heim. I will share a few things I noticed.

Spell Vamp, Lifesteal and Attack speed to not affect his turrest therefore are not viable builds.

Heims turrets DMG scales off of strait AP. A few games where I felt the team comp protected me I built multiple rabadons. The AP scale makes turrets do MONSTER dmg. However the build I listed is far safer as I am rarely in a team that can protect me. So it is fair to say AP is greater on heim than penetration because turrets hits only count as on hit effects when his ult is up. A penetration Heim is only good in a poke comp. A little pen is fine total pen will loose major dmg.


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flduckhunter73

Senior Member

03-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Great Pyrenees View Post
Well im not the best, but if you LoLking me you will see in ranked I play Heimer 80% of the time, and have a 100% positive KDA as him. So its not trolling to enjoy a Champion and play him well. Oh and I went 3-4-20 in the jungle a exceptional score.

I cant believe there are players like you above me in ranked. This is why they need to fix provisional matches and the league system in general.

****ty heimer jungler
http://www.lolking.net/search?name=Great+Pyrenees

Me
http://www.lolking.net/search?name=flduckhunter73

Not even close to the same class of player yes this guy is in B3 and im in B4. Explain?


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Great Pyrenees

Senior Member

03-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by flduckhunter73 View Post
I cant believe there are players like you above me in ranked. This is why they need to fix provisional matches and the league system in general.

****ty heimer jungler
http://www.lolking.net/search?name=Great+Pyrenees

Me
http://www.lolking.net/search?name=flduckhunter73

Not even close to the same class of player yes this guy is in B3 and im in B4. Explain?
If I had to guess, I would say it is your horrible attitude. Im not very good, but I am better than you ). Perhaps you should try heimer? You seem to die a LOT in your games.


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