Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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Gigahappytown

Member

05-08-2013

The problem is people are trolling and doing duel adcs causing a loss and making people drop down to bronze v when they deserve to be in higher ranks like silver 5 or bronze 2/1


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tom641

Senior Member

05-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.

What are some pros and cons to these ideas? Would they work for League?
Vote Kick: As nice as it'd to be able to have this, I just see douchy 4 man premades kicking the odd person for not playing the role they tell them to, or people kicking a player for wanting to try a weird build/champ for a role. If nothing else i'd restrict it to Draft and Ranked, and maybe make players have to build up charges by finishing games, like you do with Rerolls in ARAM.

WoW Dungeon Finder: I could see this working out somewhat well as long as you add a disclaimer that they might need to settle for longer queue times in the fight for Top lane. Though you'd probably need to restrict champion choices to whatever tag they choose so some smartass doesn't choose "Mage" and pick Draven or Teemo. You also might need to add or subtract tags from champions if you go this route and find out that X champion actually IS a decent Y role, who'd thunk it?

Prisoner's Island: Okay, but you have to have a list of a bunch of games on there with Spectator Mode available.


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tom641

Senior Member

05-09-2013

Also, specifically for Blind Pick, why not have Champion select take place in a lobby without a timer, and then your team gets matched up with another team after everyone's situated?


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puppet8

Junior Member

05-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
If we gave players 1 votekick per day for example, it's highly likely that most players use their 1 kick of the day. If you consider the statistical probability of 10 players in a game, each with 1 free vote kick that could be used in any given lobby... you see that we basically double or triple the number of Champion Select Lobbies that are required before one actually enters a game.
What if instead of flat out giving everyone 1 votekick, if instead you give it to those who are above a certain honor threshold? This would give incentive for being non-toxic in game, and the reward of being able to allow a team to vote out a toxic player in champ select a boost in self-efficacy that the honor system is working and they can reach that point, even if they dont meet the requirements of the threshold quite yet.


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bad kitty cat

Junior Member

05-09-2013

what about a system where instead of locking u in a role. u pick what u would like (i.e. top three champs u want to play and what lane u would prefer to be in) and it shows up as a note in champ select

example:
i would like to play xin zhao jungle, zilliean mid lane, or or something bot lane. so u choose those then when u go into champ select there is something others can mouse over real quick that informs them of what u would like.

granted it wouldnt stops those who dont care and are going to do what they want but it does help inform players quickly and maybe there could be something to get ur attention if another player wants one of the spots u want. (like a star next to em)


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Virtus Vanic

Senior Member

05-09-2013

The real problem is the community. You can't (or rather won't) fix that.


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Sharptooth

Member

05-11-2013

Lyte, I do not know if your team or someone else has pitched you this Idea, but what are your thoughts on a dispute settling system? Perhaps we could have a dispute settling system that lets all participants roll a random number to see who wins the dispute? This could be player initiated via a button that lets you input a topic of dispute (Mid, Top, ADC, other, etc.) and could also have a key word initiated system that would automatically roll for participants that post a predetermined reoccurring position/words. An example for the latter would be if Player #1 entered lobby and said "Mid" and another player said any word for the middle position (Mid, Middle, etc.) a dice roll would immediately be rolled for both players to settle who gets that position in a very easy and 100% fair way.

I feel this would work a lot better than call or pick order because it is not influenced by MMR or Connection speed. It is a unbiased fair decision making process that mimics what we might do in the real world. A system like this would also not force players into the current metagame by not forcing players to pick a roll. I know that there will still be your average trolls and jerks that will ignore this but at least it gives Riot a process it can stand behind and minimize toxic lobbies.


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Flamesilocks

Member

05-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom641 View Post
Also, specifically for Blind Pick, why not have Champion select take place in a lobby without a timer, and then your team gets matched up with another team after everyone's situated?
I very much like this idea. I think that would be a great way to do it. It allows you to get to know your team a bit before going in, pick your roles and champs and even maybe set up a skype call or something like that. I honestly believe this is the way to go.


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TehFrenchy

Junior Member

05-13-2013

Fair Warning, this is a looong post with my thoughts after reading through 50+ pages of this thread.

As someone who has been playing since around January 2012, and 30 since I believe April 2012, I have been in League for quite some time now and have seen many proposed, implemented, and rejected changes. Some I still do not like/do not believe were ideal but am not able to change, others I have been waiting on or thinking about for some time--champion select and the matchmaking system fall into the latter category.

I do not (and do not soon intend to) play Ranked in League, playing ARAMs with friends and only Solo-Queuing in Blind Pick or rarely Draft. I like to think I am competent as far as general knowledge and skills, have effectively play-called games even when I was queued with friends who are Silver/Gold and have months of experience up on me, and can theoretically lane in any position on the map.

There are a few problems I have with the solutions proposed by Lyte and in the comments, as they are written in forum or just in general:

1) Vote-Kick could be excellent for matchmaking, but it could be the worst possible thing to implement, and it may not be possible to know which until Riot attempts it. The biggest potential problem I can see is the distribution of votes among players; one per person per lobby will likely invite abuse, but basing it on wins/honors/etc will make it dependent on exactly what it is trying to achieve (better team communication/openness/cooperation).
- How too will pre-made's receive votes? If there is one vote for the whole group, that could mean two
votes in a lobby of five people and a guaranteed stalemate, more votes could imbalance the system
and pre-mades kicking the randy based on something they don't like.
- One vote per day is the best implementation I can think of (hardly perfect in it's own right) provided an
option for refunding your vote if the kick does not go through (no majority achieved).

2) The Dungeon-Finder, seemingly the most popular idea, would like-wise need to be carefully added in case of abuse. It could also cause problems for queuing in pairs (ranked) or up to 4 people in Blind Pick even if those people have determined ideal respective roles among themselves.
The most glaring issue to me is, as has been repeatedly pointed out already, the system would need to be adapted from WoW and similar to fit the looser interpretations of League of Legends. Roles would either need to be more strictly defined (severely limiting and promoting a set Meta) by locking certain champions to certain role-tags (preventing Wingsofdeathx from playing his Support Lee Sin), or queued for in a less literal sense. Queuing for Top vs just as a Bruiser or a specific champion is an important distinction, and I think the best solution would be to input some combination of the three, possibly even two or three combinations in order of preference. IE--> 1. Jungle Bruiser LeeSin/Xin Zhao, 2. Jungle Tank/CC Maokai, Top Bruiser Lee Sin

One suggestion I saw a couple times is to queue with a sort-of preferential ballot, ordering roles and/or champions based on priority for you wanting to play them, but this seems like it would be difficult to code for an open and not hour-long matchmaking queue.
Another problem I see with this is the repeated suggestion that players queue for their respective "best" [Role/Champion/Lane/Archtype/Whatever-else-may-be-defining] which would prevent people from trying to learn/improve and potentially pigeon-holing players into only playing certain things, all the time. How could I for instance improve my Top Trundle or Jungle Maokai when those are not my best/most comfortable
I believe this was meant initially more strictly referring to ranked play, allowing normals/bot games as
a learning ground for play-testing, but that is still to restrictive in my opinion especially if someone is
stuck doing something other then their preference.

The present tags for many champions is also already seen as inaccurate/misleading by many people, especially with some of the wilder things attempted on a regular basis by more skilled players (Supp. Rengar, Jungle Heimer, ADC Annie, etc) that theoretically work against the Meta if the practitioner is skilled enough, sometimes working specifically because they go against the Meta and are unexpected--this of course looks more at blind-pick where the champions/summoner spells are not visible before loading.
- I have for instance won with/lost to such cheese as 5 Man top rush with TP and Revive, dropping an
inhibitor by 7 minutes and forcing a surrender at 20. Can be easily countered if lucky in picks (Blind) or if
picks are visible before-hand like in Ranked, but pulling it off and even losing to it can be hilarious.
Some of the fun of a particular composition/strategy or even champion/position arrangement is that it is silly or unexpected, or just a champion that is now largely underplayed but is still a personal favourite despite not being termed OP or seeing lots of competitive play-time (Heimerdinger, Sion, Galio, Poppy, etc.)

3) Prisoner's Island seems to me like it works only on the assumption that those at the bottom will be reformed and move back up the ladder, my personal assumption but still an arguably optimistic one. There are likely people who would support the likelihood that "toxic" players will only drop farther down in playing with one another, feeding off each other's negative energy--so to speak. The "Positive" players would meanwhile become further separated by working in conjunction and moving up.
Where this could become a problem is where each "positive" and "toxic" player falls on the skill/rank spectrum. I do not believe there is a perfect correlation, though I would assume there is tendency for "positive" players to be better players (a vast generalization, I know, but I do not have access to the numbers and don't know for sure how they would reflect this). There is also the possibility that the positive players would be ranked better despite not necessarily being more individually skilled, because League is still a team game and winning lane does not guarantee winning the match.
The negative players would ideally all play together, and the positive players would ideally play together. At the same time, the less skilled players would ideally play against less skilled players while the pros and others of similar skill would all play together. The problem becomes clearer when overlapping the two--how does one sort skilled but toxic players from skilled positive or toxic but less skilled players?

I realize this is a MASSIVE post and doesn't really provide any actual solutions to any of this, but I do hope that it could be of some help or at least give something else to think about.


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Saybel

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Senior Member

05-13-2013

I think the first step riot needs to come up with guidelines on if pick order or call order are the offical way it should be done and make it the front page of everything.

personally I think it should be pick order in draft and call order in blind. Not matter what solution you come up with you have to adress this first unless you go with the dungeon finder stuff. Which I don't like because I don't always know what champ I want until I see the other team pick. If I pick mid and am first pick I'm stuck playing a role I'm gonna get countered in and nothing is to really stop people from going to a different lane when the game starts anyways.