Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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FlutterMeUp

Junior Member

03-20-2013

I think, to your point about establishing trust between teammates being the problem, we could implement a short maybe 20 or 30 second long debriefing before champ select showing the player's best heroes, stats, and the team can talk for a bit about who would be best at each role? The way I imagine it is as like a pokemon card specific to each player, so some simple assumptions could be made and with concrete specific stats for each player shown, lying could be a bit better dealt with.


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soulucky

Junior Member

03-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kontri View Post
Vote kick is absolutely necessary. It should be plain and simple - kicked guy gets some time penalty - like 10 minutes rapidly increasing for each next votekick (like for dodging), the rest are matchmade again. And getting votekicked should break promo series, so You can't just ask someone to kick You if You feel like losing the promo because of lane counter or sth.

And if someone worries about 4 man premades - how many times anyone of us saw that? I did it maybe 2 or 3 times, so that's not an issue. And in normals people doesn't care about winning that much, it's more for fun, testing builds and messing around, so votekicking wouldn't be so common, it's definitely more important for ranked.

This must be implemented, because it is simply ridiculous, when someone picks after You and says "F**k You, double mid then" or sth like that. You either have to dodge, or lose LP and waste ~25 minutes to play a game lost from the start.

And for unorthodox picks - if You explain them sensibly to Your teammates, You will usually be able to find someone open-minded, who will be able to vouch for ya and not let You get kicked.
Vote kick is not as simple as it looks. It is my favorite of the 3 options presented, but it need to be implemented in a smart way. Some interesting questions:

- Should all summoners be able to start a voting session? I don't think so.
- Should all summoners be able to start unlimited voting sessions in every champ select screen? Don't think it's a good idea.

If not implemented in a smart way this could end in a voting spam fest and it might take too long to even start a game. Also do we really want to give trolls the possibility to start a "OMG kick this guy I lolkinged him he sucks" campaign against someone?

I think the voting system should grant you voting points based on the frequency that you play and also on your good behaviour (i.e. honor points, clear tribunal record), based on which you would be able to initiate a voting session against a summoner. 1 vote point grants you the right to start 1 voting session against a summoner.

Basically it shouldn't give anyone unlimited voting power.

More on this here:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...286&p=35784973


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CygnusGTX

Junior Member

03-20-2013

#1 and #2 are the best ways to confront these problems we have already. With that said, I would really like to see these changes happen ASAP, the reason why is because most of us players are willing to change roles without conflict, but it's just annoying when someone sticks to a champion/role and won't just quit raging to all the other players for asking politely to change said champ/role for the good of others. And the option three I personally don't see it working. Ragers with ragers will create a bigger problem within the game.


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Will Wheaton

Member

03-20-2013

I like the wow dungeon finder suggest but I think that every role should have the chance of being a support because no one wants to do that and that would make matchmaking a long queue. Also instead of being in queue for a specific role why not just make a click box that appears when you enter queue and if you click the role you want first its states it to everyone. I think that would be better than Instalock or typing it out. People who are toxic are going to ruin the game but at least this system can allow the other team to see what occured in champion select since the tribunal doesn't really cover the pre-game. If someone is playing a character that doesn't really belong in the row that it has them labeled as and they play toxic like you have more evidence that the game was going to be bad since champion select than you can deal with that player and put them on a Pegasas Island if you want where they must collect 20 stars from playing nice with others in order to be allowed back into the good positive match making. If they don't learn to play nicely with other people like them, than they will be doomed to said island.


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Nibelhim

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Senior Member

03-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
The problem with this is that in the vast majority of games, 1st and 5th pick are differentiated by 1 game's worth of MMR. In other words, if you are 5th pick and won 1 or 2 more games, you would have been 1st pick that game.

Although the 1st pick does have the highest MMR for that particular lobby, it's not statistical support that he's the best player in the lobby.

By saying this... your effectively telling trolls that they are actually allowed to troll since they are better and its everyone else's fault...

fyi


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Undead1

Member

03-20-2013

1) Vote Kick

I dont like this one; personal experience has showen me this one is a bad idea. WoWs dungeon groups allow vote to kick. My GF played wow for a while and when she got to max level she tried dungeons. She was new, had no gear and was trying to learn what to do, 10 mins in the group kicked her. She got through a couple more dungeons and had fun, but again was vote kicked out later that day. After dealing with her crying about how people hate her and she is the only one getting kicked off teams I felt really bad.

LOL has a similar aspect to new players, I hit level 30 six months ago and had no idea of meta. I got all the way to level 30 and all I knew was that sometimes people like to jungle but that you needed smite to do it. Now they try the draft queue after finally unlocking 10 champs and every team lobby they join yells at them and votes to kick... not cool.

2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team

I like this one. I have a few thoughts on this:
a) Queue time is self correcting and not relevant. If you really want to play mid but it takes 20 mins to get that role; play something different, your probably going to be playing something different anyways if that many players all only want to play mid.

b) No this wont stop someone picking AP yi for support, but who cares. At least it resolves who plays which lane which is by far the bigger disagreement.

c) I play with friends and they are real scumbags. If they are first pick then first pick is correct and they lock in what they want. If they called the role first and an earlier pick chooses it then call order trumps. The opening analyses that half the players think call order wins and the other half think pick order wins is wrong, there is a third half that think that whichever they won wins. Also chat is not sorted, so if two players call a role they often both see themselves as having called it first, that makes for some epic hate in champ select.

d) This system is not designed yet. If you queue for "any role" why not negotiate or trade your assigned roles in selection just like you can swap champs.

e) If this applies to ranked I can see a lot of churn, as players who play many roles and negotiate well find those skills less useful and drop down the ranked ladder, while those who zero in on one one thing catch a break and climb up.

3) Prisoner’s Island

Too much effort for too little gain.


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bufarron

Senior Member

03-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Undead1 View Post
1) Vote Kick

I dont like this one; personal experience has showen me this one is a bad idea. WoWs dungeon groups allow vote to kick. My GF played wow for a while and when she got to max level she tried dungeons. She was new, had no gear and was trying to learn what to do, 10 mins in the group kicked her. She got through a couple more dungeons and had fun, but again was vote kicked out later that day. After dealing with her crying about how people hate her and she is the only one getting kicked off teams I felt really bad.

LOL has a similar aspect to new players, I hit level 30 six months ago and had no idea of meta. I got all the way to level 30 and all I knew was that sometimes people like to jungle but that you needed smite to do it. Now they try the draft queue after finally unlocking 10 champs and every team lobby they join yells at them and votes to kick... not cool.

2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team

I like this one. I have a few thoughts on this:
a) Queue time is self correcting and not relevant. If you really want to play mid but it takes 20 mins to get that role; play something different, your probably going to be playing something different anyways if that many players all only want to play mid.

b) No this wont stop someone picking AP yi for support, but who cares. At least it resolves who plays which lane which is by far the bigger disagreement.

c) I play with friends and they are real scumbags. If they are first pick then first pick is correct and they lock in what they want. If they called the role first and an earlier pick chooses it then call order trumps. The opening analyses that half the players think call order wins and the other half think pick order wins is wrong, there is a third half that think that whichever they won wins. Also chat is not sorted, so if two players call a role they often both see themselves as having called it first, that makes for some epic hate in champ select.

d) This system is not designed yet. If you queue for "any role" why not negotiate or trade your assigned roles in selection just like you can swap champs.

e) If this applies to ranked I can see a lot of churn, as players who play many roles and negotiate well find those skills less useful and drop down the ranked ladder, while those who zero in on one one thing catch a break and climb up.

3) Prisoner’s Island

Too much effort for too little gain.
Great ideas, but i have a better one: lets just limit their chat. - Riot


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AntiSkillshot

Senior Member

03-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
We want to take some time today to talk about Champion Select.

1) What are the problems?
2) What are some potential solutions?

The player behavior team has been running research on Champ Select and we agree that Champ Select is currently not a great environment and does not set teams up for success. We’ve all experienced Champ Selects that have erupted in arguments and had that sinking feeling that the game is lost before it even started. In saying this, there are plenty of Champ Select lobbies that are awesome and being positive and cooperative in every lobby does help; however, being positive by itself will not solve the problems in Champ Select and we don’t expect it to.

Solving player behavior problems in League of Legends requires collaboration between us and players and we haven’t done our part in Champ Select yet. As you can imagine, the problems (and any potential solutions) are complicated.

Something we’re seeing in our research is the influence of context.

But you know what?

This player's behavior isn’t toxic. He’s just like any one of us--we all have our bad days.

---

Let’s break down this scenario into some of the problems that we’d like to solve in Champ Select:

1) Real-Life Context | This scenario really illustrates how context outside the game can influence behavior inside the game. Traditionally, game studios don’t design or solve for context. Or can they?

2) In-Game Context | This scenario illustrates the conflict between Pick Order and Call Order. When there are literally no guidelines, at best, half of the players believe in Pick Order and half believe in Call Order—we’ve created a situation where conflicts are expected rather than rare.

3) Time Pressure | From psychology, we know that time pressure sometimes twists context in hostile ways. Players in Champ Select are effectively trying to negotiate with each other over individual goals (i.e, what role I want to play this game) that overlap with team goals (i.e, given this set of teammates, what’s the best strategy for us to win?). Studies suggest that throwing time pressure in there is like adding fuel to the fire—the end result is more disagreements and lower quality of negotiations.

4) Cognitive Biases | Hopefully davin will talk more about this, but people show cognitive bias in many ways. For example, many of us enter Champ Select thinking we are the best at whatever role we want to play—this is statistically impossible; however, there’s no reason to trust any of the strangers in the lobby. This really isn’t the players’ fault, it’s simply being human.

These are some major problems with Champ Select that we’ve identified in our research. So what’s next? A lot of players have suggested the following:

1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.

What are some pros and cons to these ideas? Would they work for League?
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Mainly in the ADC role.
But, there's always one thing I always remember. The ADC controls the game, the Support controls the lane.

I dislike the first suggestion, because you can end up being kicked by a 4 man premade.
Second suggestion is probably the best.
Third would take time... lots, and lots of time.


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bufarron

Senior Member

03-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xareidan View Post
I dislike the first suggestion, because you can end up being kicked by a 4 man premade.
there are no 4 man premade in solo/duo queue, hence the name of the mode


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SkipThree

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Senior Member

03-20-2013

This may be completely infeasible from a queue time perspective, but what if you created the team one member at a time?

Example: You queue and your main role is ADC but you don't mind jungling. Chat opens and a reasonable human being on the other side says he would like to support. You are happy and say you'd AD with him. You both accept the queue. You both then meet a jungler. great. then perhaps someone who really wants to jungle comes up again. you all apologize and decline. etc.

This format seems to be a happy medium between vote kick and dungeon finder. Queues are longer for those who are trolls or those unwilling to compromise.

If nothing else I believe this format captures what you are trying to achieve with champion select, but may be slightly cumbersome.

(this could also work for duos, you'd just need to vote on them both at the same time.)