Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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ZaganJustice

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklotus86 View Post
Hi lyte and anyone else interested in reading this reply; but I would like to weight in my opinion. This is a very lengthy essay, so I would suggest to read the introduction and the conclusion to get to my points. Skip to point 4 for my suggestion for Champ select fix.
...

8. Conclusion

I have outlined some of my thoughts on the matter regarding toxicity in game based on my observations. However, I admit I have no access to hard data and this is just my opinion based on my experience as an individual in life.
But to conclude: The Draft Mode pick is perfect for organized teams, but does not address issues at champ select for Solo Queue. There is a need for the DP system to be altered in Solo Queue to filter or get a second chance at champion selection to address toxic players. Players that are lacking in some key skill must be given the tools to practice them without affecting ranked play. The ladder system must be changed to encourage highly consistent team players by encouraging individual merit.
shortened for the sake of replying

I like your analysis of the game, on a whole.
I do not necessarily agree with your aforementioned solutions, as a whole.
I do think that there should be a "dodge/quit" option to save time, rather than closing and opening the client.
I agree that the tutorials need to be improved upon (I found them particularly lacking when I played my first few games by myself as opposed to with my veteran friends).
I am not in favor of the captain shuffle because of possible abuses.
I am not in favor of the merit system in the iteration you described (needs to be improved to account for strategies such as split pushing and double support comps).
I believe the metric for determining how "good" a player is in terms of ELO is fine as is, but I do believe that the stats after the game should be more pronounced (you can see who did what by going to "Graph" after the game is over, and you can see on your profile your "lifetime totals" for these stats in the "league" section)
In general, I think you have the right idea in terms of the problem and possible solutions, though.
I still think that simply allowing for a pre champ select stage where people click "ready" would be the best solution; the amount of time expended would probably be worth it if it lead to more cooperative (and usually more successful in terms of growth/improvement of the player) games.


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ZaganJustice

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrvilleRB View Post
I'd propose a 2 stage system:

(1) Team Select

...
(2) Champion Select

----

A longer, more complicated process, and perhaps one that people should be able to opt out of if they just want to get into a game. But ultimately, would result in less team strife.
Lyte (or Morello, idr) has stated that there is a team currently working on this endeavor (which I kept suggesting, but I guess someone finally got them to talk about it). They cited potential issues such as longer "queue" times, but I'm positive most players would prefer this if it really sponsored teamwork as well as I believe it should.


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Ombria

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Member

03-16-2013

This was a great post; it really helps explain some aspects of champ select that we don't typically acknowledge.

Some others have posted about a role order listing (i.e. something to indicate which roles a player feels most comfortable with). This is information I'd be interested in seeing immediately upon entering champ select, as it would eliminate the need for me to ask. However, I also see some drawbacks to this, particularly with regard to new players who aren't sure which roles are their best, and are seeking to learn new roles. It may also encounter the same issue noted with a dungeon finder-style system that forces players into the current meta.

I wonder if an optional indicator/symbol that lets people know which players in queue are comfortable filling any role would be helpful (rather than listing them all). Thoughts?


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Morbius2271

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Ok so I'm not going through 100+ pages to see if this has been suggested, so forgive me if I'm repeating someone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Schtiffles View Post

Idea 1: Queuing up for a 'lane'. The system could put a solid amount of emphasis on avoiding grouping those who queued for the same lane together, rather than by role of 'adc, ap' etc. This way players wouldn't be pigeonholed into a single spot or champion (same champ select rules etc), and they'd be less likely to bash heads over who goes where. Essentially it's adding another parameter to matchmaking, kind of like how you added a wins parameter a while back.

-One issue with this is that since it wouldn't necessarily be forced on the system as criteria to meet, when those 2 guys who queued for mid DO get in a game together... well, consequences could be dire.

-Another issue is queue time increases, which I personally feel wouldn't be an issue, but to those who've been spoiled by LoL's ridiculously fast queues, it could be painful. As someone who's waited in hour long DPS queues, LoL queues were a dream come true.
This idea I think is almost perfect, but to solve the issue he pointed out of two people queuing for the same role and getting placed together you would need to implement a modified Alternative Vote method.

There isn't a need to explain Alternative Vote, just suffice it to say that instead of queuing for a single lane or even multiple lanes, allow people to rank their preference. So while two people who want mid might get matched, it will be far less often, and the system would realize that they both want mid first, and so could try to ensure that one of them would be able to get their second choice.

Doing this would allow people to get their preferred role more often and with less arguments, while also ensuring that the person has a very high chance of getting a role they at least are comfortable with.


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ThisGameSucks00

Senior Member

03-16-2013

CAN WE HAVE AN EXCLUSIVE SOLO Q, ONLY FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE ACTUALLY SOLO AND DO NOT WANT TO PLAY WITH PREMADE ONES?
I'm goddamn tired of being bashed by 3 or even 4 premade people. Either by not corresponding to their expectations, either by not playing the way they want to FORCE me to play or either by being merely provoked, insulted and trolled for no reason. And if by any mean YOU ANSWER ANYTHING, ANYTHING back you will be giving a reason for the tribunal to ban you. Even asking the other team to report the perpetrators and offenders. It makes the game incredily unpleasant. And for ANY given reason you get threatened of multiple reports. Died once? Reported for feeding. Didnt given blue to mid laner? Reported...


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Dutch Apple Pie

Junior Member

03-16-2013

Honestly, just make support more fun to play. Give them more money (through masteries, items, something), change the vision system so there is less burden and more opportunity (more ways for supports to ward AND remove wards), and make them competitive throughout the game.

The same should be done for jungle, jungle needs more farm to be more competitive with solo lanes. I honestly don't see the problem with doing it that way. If it makes Jungle champions overpowered, simply balance the champions. I don't think "well they only earn 65% of the gold of a mid laner all game" is a good balancing mechanic anyway.

Do this and MUCH of the toxicity of champion select will dissapear. When ALL roles are fun to play for the majority of people, people won't mind filling nearly as much.


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NinjaCW

Member

03-16-2013

Vote Kick doesn't need to be in normals though. It's normals for a reason and that is to learn. That's the place to go outside the meta and try new things and if people don't like it then they can get some friends and group up.

In ranked though you want to play as solid as possible within a meta of the game. We all know how to play the game so if we have 4 out of 5 people wanting to play the meta the guy that is being difficult deserves to be kicked. How is that a bad thing?


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A Super Saiyan 3

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Wouldn't the dungeon finder system only promote stagnation of the meta so that it could never evolve? Look at wow, It is still 1 tank 1 healer 3 dps since the beggining of time when that finder came out.


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Chrystoff

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Having roles to pick would also bring in arguments and more hate during a match, i can see it now, i'd probably be in a match or two where i'd see someone playing support horribly or something, and i'd just ask in confusion why he picked that role, his answer could be a number of things, but the fact that an argument could start would be pretty high, and it'd happen to anyone who might lose first blood or their lane, it'd be inviting a lot of toxic play, but out of the given ideas this is probably the stronger one.

I'm not saying the accusations could just be other players, it would definetly happen to me, obviously you don't always win your lane, and this would bring more toxicity to the players who aren't doing so hot, and just fuel that mental fire, because they're probably just as dissapointed as the team is about the whole situation.

Perhaps you should step back and take a look at the situation again, and disregard all the possible solutions to start fresh, back to the drawing board if you will, maybe even disregard how the champ select screen works atm.

I hope for the best on this solution, because I feel that I and many others would be very appreciative of a nicer more welcoming champion select, maybe some people that don't even realise it will be thankfull too.


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Daddy Dennis

Senior Member

03-16-2013

The pre-game smack talk in this game is a jewel, not anything close to toxic in almost all cases. It is based on the idea of context so eloquently expressed in this post. 90% of the time the pre-game ranked jibber jabber does not leak into the game. It is left behind when the match starts.

Idea #1 would be abused and not useful in ranked without open stats for a player. Even then, it would be abused.

Idea #2 could work very well if it allowed for those of us able to play all heroes to not be pigeon-holed. I think it would lead to a less well-rounded player with the bonus of less fighting for spots pre-game.

Idea #3 is a dead end. As soon as players figure out they are on the island they will either attempt to circumvent it or find a new game. Even if they accept the punishment, they will be paired with like-minded folks who will only make them worse gamers.