Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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Semune

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakk View Post
I see issues with all of these, but I especially dislike the dungeon finder approach. Locking people into the current meta will make this game stale faster than bread left unwrapped on the counter. Ive been around a long time and have seen several metas come and go. Honestly, that's part of what keeps it fresh.

I think sometimes the simple answers are the best. Pick order > Call order. Find some way to enforce this and I think the issue goes away.

I took about a year off and when I came back about 3 months ago, call order was a new thing. It really didn't exist before I left. I thought it was a joke at first when I came back. It is such a selfish way to play the game I cant stand it.
Several metas come and go?

I'm sorry but, I've played since beta and can only count 3 metas that we've evolved into. The first one was just because it was back in beta/early launch and we didn't know wtf we were doing.

I'd love to hear about all these metas you've seen.

Unless you're thinking of "middle zed" and whatnot being a "new meta", in which case, the dungeon finder WOULD work because you'd queue for mid, no matter what the current "best mid" is.


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mattsbakedd

Junior Member

03-15-2013

u should add a party up option after the game. or if someone leaves the lobby.


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Aregionius

Senior Wrenchman

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
The player behavior team reads almost every post; however, we can't reply to every post I do the best I can to write responses for new ideas I've seen, instead of repeating the same information.
Lyte, what about this proposal


The two biggest things that cause this behavior are a system which allows it to occur and a desire for individual control. If we take a look back at original DoTA, this type of thing was far less prevalent because both of those causes were addressed. Actual "champion select" took place in game so there was no option to dodge once the game began and people could make their picks. This was coupled with the numerous "ban list" programs that allowed you to create a personal list of players you never wanted to see again, giving you specific individual control over the matchmaking process.

Neither one of these options is available in League as champion select makes dodging possible and "ban lists" would not work with the matchmaker system. So instead we need options that will address these same causes in a way that will work within the current system.

The problem with most of the solutions above is that they require significant sacrifices, either in terms of meta adherence, queue time, programming development time, or other negative effects.

Instead, I would suggest implementing a system based around Pick Order in Ranked/Draft, but modifying the way that system works to adjust for individual control. In detail, that would mean:
1. Using the current champ selection system of Pick Order - It's already in place and would require no changes
2. Change the way pick order is decided to incorporate both honor and MMR, ensuring that the top picks are players who combine the qualities of highest skill with most cooperation.
3. Change the honor system to be much more simplified (1 or 2 ribbons) and focused directly on cooperation. Let's be honest "honorable opponent" is nice, but meaningless in terms of champion select. This would increase both usage and meaning.
4. Add an honor penalty to dodges. That would give the ability to add penalties against the player's pick order as punishment for a dodge abuse, while not really impacting players who dodge occasionally to meet a friend.
5. Display honor rating (and potentially MMR) in champion select as a visual, non-debatable confirmation as to why the pick order is the way it is.

This system would help eliminate the arguments created from the uncertainty about champion select (callers vs order) and add additional confirmation as to why the order is as it is, giving hard evidence (honor/mmr) and reasoning behind why players were chosen for their pick order. This would also give bonuses in terms of first pick to players who have been honored as cooperative and are more likely to be compromising about helping their team during champion select.

It also gives players the feeling of additional control as they know if they behave properly they have a better chance of gaining that top pick position AND their overall game performance is factored in to this decision. This means, players would know with greater certainty that either, they have played good enough to be top pick, or someone with a higher skill level and/or who is very willing to cooperate will have that position. At the same time it helps discourage dodging as it adds an additional penalty (with few cons) that over time results in the exact opposite effect these players want from dodging in the first place.

At the same time, with no changes to the system, this would give added weight to Tribunal Convictions as they would automatically negate a player's honor, increasing the value of reporting a troll and reducing their impact on the champ select process. However, it would greatly help to add pre-game lobby conversations to the Tribunal judgements in order to get a clear understanding of what happens there and to make champion select trolling a reportable and judgeable offense within the system.

For Normal Blind Pick, the system could potentially work two ways:
1. Blind draft for both teams - Meaning there are no bans, but each team is given it's own pick order using the same system above (or the system without ELO/MMR factor)
or
2. Some sort of WoW Dungeon Queue (2, 2a, 2b) is used, because it's a different queue anyway so the match time increase wouldn't affect ranked/norm draft, and the issues that Dungeon Queue doesn't deal with very well (meta and pick order) wouldn't matter quite as much.


Crazy idea that may or may not be possible
After champion select, add team-only honor voting. This would give players (who are a captive audience during load time) the ability to honor up or down teammates based on their champion select collaboration.

Further Discussion
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...e=218#35615125
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...e=223#35617923
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...e=225#35618615
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...e=226#35619121
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...e=227#35619516
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...e=232#35622599


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Cup

Junior Member

03-15-2013

Lyte,

I know you guys are doing your best to read through these posts, I want to make sure this gets noticed because I really think it is a good solution. Would love to hear thoughts from others as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballstein211 View Post
I would really love to get a Red's opinion on my idea for the WoW Dungeon Finder:

Instead of having 5 roles to que for there should be 3 - support, jungle, and carry (much like when WoW had tank, healer, and dps). A team would be made up of 1 support, 1 jungle, and 3 carries. Why do it this way?

First, it still promotes team communication as the 3 carries would have to decide who will go to which lane, and how they want their composition to look. Also, the team could decide to send the support top lane if they want, because the role of support is not confined to the bottom lane.

Second, players aren't forced to conform strictly to the meta. If they decide they want to have 3 bruisers as their "carries" they can, or they could have 3 assassins, or whatever they want. Junglers have to jungle of course, but they could fill any role that they want in the team composition. Supports could be tanky, provide heals/shields, or create a kill lane. They could even go top lane if that is what the team decides. Once again this promotes team communication.

Third, it matches people with compatible teammates. Believe it or not there are a lot of people out there that love to support and jungle, and usually those people have a positive experience in champion select. Think of the times you had no arguments in champion select...I bet there were people in there that WANTED to jungle or support. By doing it this way, you are matching those people (and believe it or not there are quite a few people that like to jungle and support out there) with the ones that would prefer to top, mid, or adc.

The whole point of my idea is that it does not enforce the meta, but rather matches people together that are interested in fulfilling different roles. Once they are matched, their discussion is about team composition and HOW each role will be filled, not WHO will fill each role.


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Semune

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aregionius View Post
Lyte, what about this proposal

My Suggestion

The two biggest things that cause this behavior are a system which allows it to occur and a desire for individual control. If we take a look back at original DoTA, this type of thing was far less prevalent because both of those causes were addressed. Actual "champion select" took place in game so there was no option to dodge once the game began and people could make their picks. This was coupled with the numerous "ban list" programs that allowed you to create a personal list of players you never wanted to see again, giving you specific individual control over the matchmaking process.

Neither one of these options is available in League as champion select makes dodging possible and "ban lists" would not work with the matchmaker system. So instead we need options that will address these same causes in a way that will work within the current system.

The problem with most of the solutions above is that they require significant sacrifices, either in terms of meta adherence, queue time, programming development time, or other negative effects.

Instead, I would suggest implementing a system based around Pick Order in Ranked/Draft, but modifying the way that system works to adjust for individual control. In detail, that would mean:
1. Using the current champ selection system of Pick Order - It's already in place and would require no changes
2. Change the way pick order is decided to incorporate both honor and MMR, ensuring that the top picks are players who combine the qualities of highest skill with most cooperation.
3. Change the honor system to be much more simplified (1 or 2 ribbons) and focused directly on cooperation. Let's be honest "honorable opponent" is nice, but meaningless in terms of champion select. This would increase both usage and meaning.
4. Add an honor penalty to dodges. That would give the ability to add penalties against the player's pick order as punishment for a dodge abuse, while not really impacting players who dodge occasionally to meet a friend.
5. Display honor rating (and potentially MMR) in champion select as a visual, non-debatable confirmation as to why the pick order is the way it is.

This system would help eliminate the arguments created from the uncertainty about champion select (callers vs order) and add additional confirmation as to why the order is as it is, giving hard evidence (honor/mmr) and reasoning behind why players were chosen for their pick order. This would also give bonuses in terms of first pick to players who have been honored as cooperative and are more likely to be compromising about helping their team during champion select.

It also gives players the feeling of additional control as they know if they behave properly they have a better chance of gaining that top pick position AND their overall game performance is factored in to this decision. This means, players would know with greater certainty that either, they have played good enough to be top pick, or someone with a higher skill level and/or who is very willing to cooperate will have that position. At the same time it helps discourage dodging as it adds an additional penalty (with few cons) that over time results in the exact opposite effect these players want from dodging in the first place.

At the same time, with no changes to the system, this would give added weight to Tribunal Convictions as they would automatically negate a player's honor, increasing the value of reporting a troll and reducing their impact on the champ select process. However, it would greatly help to add pre-game lobby conversations to the Tribunal judgements in order to get a clear understanding of what happens there and to make champion select trolling a reportable and judgeable offense within the system.

For Normal Blind Pick, the system could potentially work two ways:
1. Blind draft for both teams - Meaning there are no bans, but each team is given it's own pick order using the same system above (or the system without ELO/MMR factor)
or
2. Some sort of WoW Dungeon Queue (2, 2a, 2b) is used, because it's a different queue anyway so the match time increase wouldn't affect ranked/norm draft, and the issues that Dungeon Queue doesn't deal with very well (meta and pick order) wouldn't matter quite as much.


Crazy idea that may or may not be possible
After champion select, add team-only honor voting. This would give players (who are a captive audience during load time) the ability to honor up or down teammates based on their champion select collaboration.
TL;DR - Make pick order king.

And my TL;DR to that, is I disagree, there will still be problems with this, due to people feeling like they're pidgeonholed into a role they don't know that well or don't want to play. While I respect the notion to the original DotA, the system was on Warcraft 3, many years old. Not to mention, your honor ribbon suggestion would cause a lot of greifing to people who have a lower rating. You never want a community divide where people say "Your honor isn't at x, you suck and your opinion doesn't matter, go support or leave"

Now for my 2 cents...

We need to have some sort of queueing. Either have 5 queues: Top, Jungle, Mid, ADC, Support.... Or.... 3 queues: Jungle, Support, 3 Carries. Although I think the 5 queue system would be better, the 3 queue system would work as well because every carry is essentially doing the same exact thing, but with a different type of champion, and they'd be more willing to negotiate their lane with other carries rather than support or jungle where they might not be as comfortable.
That's the only way to ensure there is no pidgeonholing into roles or pre-game raging.


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NFG Crayon

Senior Member

03-15-2013

I don't think it's all that complicated. You guys like to make things more complicated than they are, but whatever.

It's simple.

1) Implement a WoW Dungeon-style queue with 'Top' 'Mid' 'Bottom' 'Jungle' and 'Support' as choices.
a) This covers all your bases.
b) It does NOT enforce the meta. If in queue your team decides to do a double bruiser kill lane bot? The people who queued as Bottom and Support can just take bruisers. If you decide to double jungle? The 'Jungle' and 'Support' both take junglers. It's not complicated. Just because a queue choice is called one thing doesn't mean that's what it has to be. At the end of the day, you'll never get rid of the three core laners (top/mid/adc) and the jungler. It's the 'support' that is USUALLY a support, but COULD sometimes be a roamer, double-jungler, etc. It's the same frigging thing.

2) Implement a vote kick system!
a) This prevents somebody queue-ing up as support to get a faster game start, then in champ select going 'lol I'm taking this or that non-support champion and going mid and you can't report me for breaking the meta' since the entire team could just say 'lolno' and kick him. This in conjunction with the dungeon finder would make a very robust and strong champion select. Nearly troll-proof.
b) Allows the team to decide where exactly the line between innovative and creative non-meta team composition and trying to game the dungeon finder or grief the team lies.


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TheAllArounder

Junior Member

03-15-2013

i personally think 1 and 2 are the best choices and 3 isnt because toxic players matching toxic players won't slove anything


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Sh4rpz

Junior Member

03-15-2013

i personally like no.1, vote to kick, but to then extended on it to improve the behavior so no one has to be kicked, make it so when your kicked 3-5 times maybe me removed from que for maybe 5 minutes, and if it continues to happen for week or few days send them to the tribunal with the champ select chat for the reviewer to see whats going on, unfortunately this could also back fire from people kicking someone doing nothing wrong, just someone using Lolking.com to see that the player is maybe playing bad or just isnt a brilliant player and could be kicked for it, which might have to be a trade off for i think its really the best way, also for it will help get rid of the afk players if the system doesn't realize, also gives the chance for players to possibly avoid and kick potential toxic players.


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Labomba

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Allow players to mark the roles they are OPEN to playing prior to entering the queue. The system then works to put players into teams where each role is covered.

If you have two or more players who have the same preference, they can decide between themselves who will play what role.

If you have players who only select one role (mid for example), those players will spend substantially longer in queue as match-making will have to find four teammates who do not have said role (mid) as one of their preferred roles.

With this type of system, it rewards players who are OK playing multiple roles with faster queue times, whereas players who only want to play one role will have a longer wait until they are matched with a compatible team. The benefit of this system over single-role selection is that a team should be more capable of putting together a cohesive composition of champions that collaborate well together because multi-role selection allows players to be more flexible in their picks.

For instance, let's say two players both choose ADC and Support as the roles they are open to playing. Player A initially chooses to play Miss Fortune, and player B chooses to support with Blitzcrank. Player A believes that his MF play style doesn't gel well with how Blitz supports, so player A can either pick another ADC champion, or player A can ask if player B would like to ADC instead, leaving player A to pick a support champion. You've got options here.

Example #2: player A and player B both select mid and top as their preferred roles. Player A initially chooses Nidalee top and player B chooses Master Yi mid. The team decides they are lacking tankiness and crowd control. Player A can then either switch to another top lane champion that fits better with the team comp, or he can switch roles with player B in hopes that the champions they pick accomplish better team synergy.


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Aregionius

Senior Wrenchman

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRBxCatOnFire View Post
TL;DR - Make pick order king.

And my TL;DR to that, is I disagree, there will still be problems with this, due to people feeling like they're pidgeonholed into a role they don't know that well or don't want to play. While I respect the notion to the original DotA, the system was on Warcraft 3, many years old. Not to mention, your honor ribbon suggestion would cause a lot of greifing to people who have a lower rating. You never want a community divide where people say "Your honor isn't at x, you suck and your opinion doesn't matter, go support or leave"
Unfortunately the phrase "Pick Order" is a bit loaded right now. The difference here though, is that it reworks the way that system is setup to account for more concrete determinations.

Basically, Pick Order is already king right now. You can't see pre-game chat to know if someone is trolling, if pick order instalocks there's really no reporting system for identifying that player.

The thing with adding in the Honor System here is it takes a component that already exists (so there's far less programming time) and makes it work within matchmaker to add value. I don't really see it as a divider since honor is known to be completely different than skill level, so that example quote doesn't really capture the situation.

In this case it would be "Your pick order is higher than mine because you're proven to be more likely to cooperate and/or have a known higher skill level" and it gives you more personal control because if something goes wrong, you have the ability to downgrade their honor rating.