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Support gameplay lacks fun?

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TheFakeSit

Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
awkwardbowman:
you're details are very compelling arguments but your solution lacks clarity.


You are details?

LOL


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awkwardbowman

Senior Member

03-11-2013

The most important part was me saying I can have fun with what I'm given already, so why do you need the rest of it? If you want complexity and you want to keep comparing how it's more fun in DotA, then go play DotA. I'm saying I have no issue with this system, and I'm pretty sure other people don't have an issue either.


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awkwardbowman

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
TheFakeSit:
You are details?

LOL

whoops -.-
obviously I should reread my shorter posts before I post them.


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TealNinje

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
IamDuddits:
Compare this to what DotA supports do:

Everything you listed for LoL supports
They deny creeps
They pull lane
They stack ancients
Buy and upgrade courier
Buy Dust/Smoke
They roam for ganks

Are we playing DotA?

No, no we are not. We are playing League of Legends.

I'd sooner play the very first Aeon of Strife map than play DotA.


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IamDuddits

Senior Member

03-12-2013

Quote:
awkwardbowman:
The most important part was me saying I can have fun with what I'm given already, so why do you need the rest of it? If you want complexity and you want to keep comparing how it's more fun in DotA, then go play DotA. I'm saying I have no issue with this system, and I'm pretty sure other people don't have an issue either.


Quote:
TealNinje:
Are we playing DotA?

No, no we are not. We are playing League of Legends.

I'd sooner play the very first Aeon of Strife map than play DotA.


Ah, yes. Classic fanboy responses. "This isn't DotA and thus we can't possibly improve the game based on anything from DotA." I mean it's not as if LoL is pretty much building on many of the concepts of DotA already.... oh wait. Pretty ignorant thought process if you ask me, but then again you are judging a game that you've no understanding of so it shouldn't come as a surprise.


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TealNinje

Senior Member

03-12-2013

Quote:
IamDuddits:
Ah, yes. Classic fanboy responses. "This isn't DotA and thus we can't possibly improve the game based on anything from DotA." I mean it's not as if LoL is pretty much building on many of the concepts of DotA already.... oh wait. Pretty ignorant thought process if you ask me, but then again you are judging a game that you've no understanding of so it shouldn't come as a surprise.

Actually, I understand DotA just fine. It never came up with anything on its own, only copying what other AoS maps did. It never attempted to be more than mediocre. The era of AoS maps came to a halting crash because of DotA, because map designers didn't feel like they were getting the support for their maps, and because anything they did was likely to be stolen by DotA and they wouldn't be given credit. Taking something from DotA is not likely to improve the game, but actively hurt it.

We might have had League of Legends several years earlier if DotA hadn't existed, and there would definitely have been a lot more stand alone attempts into the genre.

Of course, you can continue believing that the people who hate DotA and everything it stands for are ignorant. Doesn't make you right, but you can continue believing it.

(TL;DR: DotA never came up with anything on its own, so it wouldn't be copying DotA anyway.)


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Xocolatl

Recruiter

03-12-2013

Supports are, despite their name, trolls.
Your job is to troll the enemy, hard. And that's why I like playing support.


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IamDuddits

Senior Member

03-12-2013

Quote:
TealNinje:
Actually, I understand DotA just fine. It never came up with anything on its own, only copying what other AoS maps did. It never attempted to be more than mediocre. The era of AoS maps came to a halting crash because of DotA, because map designers didn't feel like they were getting the support for their maps, and because anything they did was likely to be stolen by DotA and they wouldn't be given credit. Taking something from DotA is not likely to improve the game, but actively hurt it.

We might have had League of Legends several years earlier if DotA hadn't existed, and there would definitely have been a lot more stand alone attempts into the genre.

Of course, you can continue believing that the people who hate DotA and everything it stands for are ignorant. Doesn't make you right, but you can continue believing it.

(TL;DR: DotA never came up with anything on its own, so it wouldn't be copying DotA anyway.)


Never said it did come up with anything on it's own. What I was pointing out is how stupid of an argument it is to say: "This isn't X so anything that works for X doesn't apply to this". Nearly every game, every idea has pulled things from other sources. Using the statement "This isn't DotA" is the dumbest counter-argument that the people in these forums love throwing out there. It's as moronic as "complexity for the sake of complexity" and "burden of knowledge".

Are you going to tell me that the reason why LoL doesn't have a pause feature is because that'd be too much like DotA? Or a replay system? See how idiotic that argument sounds now?

At this point I can't imagine using more design/balance concepts can hurt them anymore than it already has considering that 90% of the ability ideas that they've used are inspired by DotA hero abilities. Also, didn't they add item actives at the beginning of season 3? Do you really think that wasn't an improvement (and yes I'm implying that was influenced by DotA considering Guinsoo was a designer for DotA alongside Icefrog).


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awkwardbowman

Senior Member

03-12-2013

Quote:
IamDuddits:
Never said it did come up with anything on it's own. What I was pointing out is how stupid of an argument it is to say: "This isn't X so anything that works for X doesn't apply to this". Nearly every game, every idea has pulled things from other sources. Using the statement "This isn't DotA" is the dumbest counter-argument that the people in these forums love throwing out there. It's as moronic as "complexity for the sake of complexity" and "burden of knowledge".

We're not saying it won't work for league, we're saying it's not required. If they both have systems that are different yet work, why would you make them more and more alike? I like the way League supports work and I don't want to see it change to be like another game, or else I'd go play that game. I don't play DotA, but I don't have an issue with LoL.

Quote:
IamDuddits:
Are you going to tell me that the reason why LoL doesn't have a pause feature is because that'd be too much like DotA? Or a replay system? See how idiotic that argument sounds now?

A pause feature wouldn't really help my games. And they do have pauses for premade games. As for a reply system, it's been done through LoL Recorder and is now headed for the main client already. Please restate your argument.

Quote:
IamDuddits:
At this point I can't imagine using more design/balance concepts can hurt them anymore than it already has considering that 90% of the ability ideas that they've used are inspired by DotA hero abilities. Also, didn't they add item actives at the beginning of season 3? Do you really think that wasn't an improvement (and yes I'm implying that was influenced by DotA considering Guinsoo was a designer for DotA alongside Icefrog).

They're had item actives for a LONG time... As for similar ability ideas, sure, use them. It's still going to be plenty different just because of the difference in everything else in the game. This isn't my strongest argument, but I'm pretty sure the other DotA player can help on this point.


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IamDuddits

Senior Member

03-12-2013

Quote:
awkwardbowman:
We're not saying it won't work for league, we're saying it's not required. If they both have systems that are different yet work, why would you make them more and more alike? I like the way League supports work and I don't want to see it change to be like another game, or else I'd go play that game. I don't play DotA, but I don't have an issue with LoL.


Your narrow-mindedness is astounding. Games like this thrive on changing and evolving because of the existence of the meta-game. If things don't change then the game finds itself in a very stagnant meta-game, which is what LoL has been in for almost two years now with Tanky DPS and Bruisers dominating the scene and set lane line-ups (Bruiser Top, AP/AD Caster mid, junlger, AD + Support bot). But something like this wouldn't concern you because you don't like change.

Quote:
awkwardbowman:
A pause feature wouldn't really help my games. And they do have pauses for premade games. As for a reply system, it's been done through LoL Recorder and is now headed for the main client already. Please restate your argument.


So because a pause feature doesn't help you that means it wouldn't help anyone else? That's pretty much what I got from this comment. As for LoL recorder, I had to look into that and find it really sad that after 4 years the only replay system is a 3rd party client.