[Guide] - The New Ryze, A Low AP Build

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Milskidasith

Senior Member

01-05-2010

I agree with this build. I've played it, and it is very effective.

However, I think you are underestimating the AP ratios a bit with your math. While yes, they are .33 AP ratios on W and E, there's a catch to them: They hit a LOT more than once. RP hits six times, for an AP of 2, and Spell Flux, with AoE and a good bounce, can hit effectively 5 times (3 hits and 3 AoEs), for an AP ratio of 1.66.

I've played burst Ryze and this, and I like this better, but I think you are underestimating just how much extra juice AP gives Ryze, although since his ult gives so much AP, and Archangels gives so much AP to this due to your huge mana pool, it's harder to notice (the real difference is that with burst Ryze, if you don't have your ult ready you can still gank somebody at around half-three quarters health, while with this one you need your ult up to get a gank, although you really don't ever not have your ult up in a fight because of it's absurdly short CD).


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Aregionius

Senior Wrenchman

01-06-2010

Thanks Milsk, I agree it's not that AP is worthless, it's just not the focus of the guide. And with the variability of the 6th item, it certainly allows for more AP if that's what someone wants.

Bit of a correction for the math. Just because a spell hits multiple times, it doesn't change the ratio. So, because Rune Prison has 6 ticks, the ratio is still .33 not Two.

The ratio is applied on each hit, so let's say you've got a level 5 Spell Flux. Spell Flux has an AP ratio of .33 and does 130 damage base per hit with 5 possible bounces.

So, with 100 AP you get 130+(100*.33) = 163 * 5 = 815 total damage

with 200 AP you get 130+(200*.33) = 196 * 5 = 980 total damage

So you're getting about an 18% damage increase from the extra 100 AP. The ratio always stays the same and is applied in both cases.

The motivation behind this build was the change in Ryze's passive and the decrease in his AP ratios. The whole idea is combining cooldown reduction with his passive gives you the ability to throw off 2 Spell Fluxes instead of 1 and to get more shots off while you're running the +140AP/AoE benefit of his ult.


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1337LoL

Member

01-06-2010

To be honest, late game you need lots of AP for decent damage. I usually go ROA tread and banshee's early on so I dont get destroyed. I got zhonyas after that since its such an amazing AP item. Ive tried builds were i dont go zhonyas and insted get a -CD item or MP, but it doesnt feel the same.

I dont understand why everyone needs a frozen heart?

9% -CD from talents
22% -CD from golem
(If your teammate is willing) Soul shroud 15% -CD arua*
(If your teammate is not willing) Carry an elixer around to use for team fights -10% CD

In either scenario you gain 40% -CD without a frozen heart.


*YOU dont get the soul shroud your teammate has to

Also has anyone looked into MP(magic penetration) glyphs? Is it worth it?


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JohnGreymore

Junior Member

01-10-2010

Hello there!

For a month or so now I've been playing nothing but ryze, following your build almost exactly as said everytime. As much as I've made mistakes, I've begun to think that this build can be modified to achieve the maximum dps and burst at the same time, a balance of the both.

Assuming that the runes are all in place, the ryze player will have something like 460+ mana at lvl 18. Let us now obtain tear of the goddess as the first item as usual. This will mean an extra 1k mana or so when maxed out.

Now, modifying the build here, let's try going straight to frozen heart right after mercury threads. This means that cd is now as low as possible while you level your spells, along with extra mana from frozen heart plus survivability from physical damage.

At this stage, I haven't thought of it clearly enough, but we can branch out into 3 items. Abyssal, lich bane, or zhonya's. Abyssal scepter reduxes their magic resist, gives you ap and magic resist at the same time. Lich bane gives you mana and ap plus a bonus whack that deals super damage with desperate power. Zhonya's amplifies every spell in your arsenal and makes you deal super damage.

The only problem would then be magic resist and health, but you'll have the ability to take down or near take down all of the heroes even in high ELOs, since in that category you should be sticking with your allies and letting them initiate. If the enemy initiates and everyone targets you first, you will die regardless of your build. This build would then be able to deal more damage within a shorter span of time to allow your allies a higher chance of either killing or running away from the battle.

I'm going to test this build in the next few games, but I'd like your thoughts on this. I understand that survivability is a huge issue, but with the overall damage increase, I'm going to see if it's worth the sacrifice.

Thanks!


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Milskidasith

Senior Member

01-10-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aregionius View Post
Bit of a correction for the math. Just because a spell hits multiple times, it doesn't change the ratio. So, because Rune Prison has 6 ticks, the ratio is still .33 not Two.

The ratio is applied on each hit, so let's say you've got a level 5 Spell Flux. Spell Flux has an AP ratio of .33 and does 130 damage base per hit with 5 possible bounces.

So, with 100 AP you get 130+(100*.33) = 166 * 5 = 830 total damage

with 200 AP you get 130+(200*.33) = 196 * 5 = 980 total damage

So you're getting about an 18% damage increase from the extra 100 AP. The ratio always stays the same and is applied in both cases.
Actually, you did the math wrong... rune prison hits six times, not five (first mistake), and you lowered the AP ratio of 200 (with a bonus of 100 AP, you gave it 30 extra damage, and not 33).

And while the AP ratio is always the same at .33 per tick, it's effectively an AP ratio of two because you get six ticks, so your AP causes that much more damage. It's not really a complex idea; if you use a 1:1 AP spell, you get 1 damage per AP. If you use rune prison, you get .33 damage per AP six times, for a total of two damage per AP, which is actually amazing as far as AP to damage goes.


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Smulert

Junior Member

01-11-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
Actually, you did the math wrong... rune prison hits six times, not five (first mistake)
you're talking about spell flux, not rune prison (first mistake! ^^)


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Aregionius

Senior Wrenchman

01-11-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
Actually, you did the math wrong... rune prison hits six times, not five (first mistake), and you lowered the AP ratio of 200 (with a bonus of 100 AP, you gave it 30 extra damage, and not 33).

And while the AP ratio is always the same at .33 per tick, it's effectively an AP ratio of two because you get six ticks, so your AP causes that much more damage. It's not really a complex idea; if you use a 1:1 AP spell, you get 1 damage per AP. If you use rune prison, you get .33 damage per AP six times, for a total of two damage per AP, which is actually amazing as far as AP to damage goes.

The example used Spell Flux as Smulert pointed out.

Second, I think you're still confusing AP ratio with damage. When your Ability Power is increased by 100, you still multiply your new AP, in the example that's 200, by the same AP ratio, because that never changes. So with 200 AP, you still have 200*.33 = 66 damage.

You're correct in that I actually did the first part wrong, the 100 AP example should be 163 damage for a final damage of 815. So the 200 AP portion does at 33 damage appropriately.

The part that you're talking about with the idea of effective AP ratios, doesn't change y our AP ratio but rather takes into account all the damage of the spell and is covered with the final multiplication (in the example 5 bounces of Spell Flux, or as you mentioned the 6 ticks of rune prison)

with 100 AP you get 130+(100*.33) = 166 * Five = 830 total damage


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Ravikus

Junior Member

01-11-2010

i used to get as much ap with ryze as i could and i'd usually get 10 kills and die 5 times, but i decided to follow your guide and went 19/1/11 ;D

and that one death was from teemo ganking me while i killed two of them -_-

on another note, if the other team is focusing on you, then it can be sort of hard to get on your feet. that was my second game using this guide, the first i got focused on by two tanks and i went something like 4/5/1 it was baad.

anyway here's a screenshot haha.


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NUMBERSLOCK

Senior Member

01-12-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disillusion View Post
Low AP, high mana. What do you do when you run into Veigar?

Run like hell?
Are you an idiot? Veigar's passive makes him way more powerful if you stack AP. He uses YOUR AP against you. A mana/hp build is FAR better against Veigar than an AP build.

This style of Ryze is far superior to an AP focused build, the only people arguing that it isn't are people who are incapable of understanding game mechanics and the meta game in most high ELO games.


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ENÐER

Senior Member

01-12-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic1983 View Post
Are you an idiot? Veigar's passive makes him way more powerful if you stack AP. He uses YOUR AP against you. A mana/hp build is FAR better against Veigar than an AP build.
lol? ur kidding right? you do know that veigar's ult does 25% of your mana in dmg to you also right? talk about 1 shot your hp to 1/4 your hp left :P