@Lyte / Wookiecookie: I don't understand.

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Burgleburgle

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03-11-2013

I guess, Nas, our differences come down to whether or not it's okay to make fun of and belittle a teammate for being bad. You think it's ok. I think it's not okay.

However, I think we can both agree on one thing: The majority of people who vote in the tribunal think it's not ok.

Right? That's pretty undeniably true. We can probably extrapolate (though this is a guess!) from there that the majority of players in LOL think it's not ok.

So let's agree: you are basically a member of a vocal minority (yes, minority. If you were a majority, punishes would not be as common.) of players who thinks it's okay to belittle teammates. Riot has decided that the best way to have a self-policing community is to basically allow the majority to regulate what is and is not offensive, while providing some basic guidelines. This is a flexible system that ensures that the game's morality is roughly what most people want it to be.

It does not appear to be what you want it to be. Which is unfortunate from your perspective, but leaves you with the options to either align your morality or get banned.

-Burgle (You could, if you were so inclined, use this post as an example of how to ignore trolling and raging and respond constructively.)


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Wertilq

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amélie Poulain View Post
Except it is about people being oversensitive. Ever notice how every single game (ranked, anyway) someone from either team will say "report"? Doesn't matter what for; people will request other people to report more people. It all stems from exposure to "toxic" behavior.
That is different. People SAYING "report" isn't the only ones reporting you. One of the most common words the most toxic players say is in fact 'report'.

You overreacted quite a bit to my response though. Being careful what you say, is not the same as saying nothing but MIAs. It's a method that works, but tbh it's possible to do. Don't mix my words with what people say in game. Just because people scream REPORT all the time doesn't it mean you do things genuinely report worthy at those times.

Treat people with respect, remember they are strangers, and be very careful criticizing others. Those are the three guidelines when chatting in-game.


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Amélie Poulain

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wertilq View Post
That is different. People SAYING "report" isn't the only ones reporting you. One of the most common words the most toxic players say is in fact 'report'.
This is true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wertilq View Post
You overreacted quite a bit to my response though.
This is not true. I don't know where you're getting that vibe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wertilq View Post
Being careful what you say, is not the same as saying nothing but MIAs. It's a method that works, but tbh it's possible to do. Don't mix my words with what people say in game. Just because people scream REPORT all the time doesn't it mean you do things genuinely report worthy at those times.
Of course. This is common sense. I don't trust this community enough to play it cautiously; the safest option for me to protect my investment is to literally mute everyone and say nothing, because my personality clearly clashes with this game's current policy.


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Luscious Lenny

Senior Member

03-11-2013

aa


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Nasdrovia499

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amélie Poulain View Post
Gonna have to play Devil's Advocate and agree with most of what you said. All I disagree with is the notion that Tribunal is a joke; it's a really good idea, you have to admit. It keeps a lot of true bastards out; not many games do.
Not sure about what words I used specifically, but that's not what I meant. Tribunal in itself, and the idea of banning players who cross the line, is fine - in fact, any online game worth a shot bans abusive players. It's not the concept I'm criticizing, it's the method.

What I disagree with, is the fact that Riot absolutely wants to actively improve the community rather than just "keeping the bastards out". People behave the way they want, and depending on how they were raised, where they live, etc. As long as they don't become absurdly offensive, there is no reason for them to change just to play a game. Not only that, but so far I don't think it's effective. Tribunal breeds frustration, more angry people who are afraid of getting banned, more crying for reports...And of course the "tribunal abusers" who know how to be a dick without showing it explicitly in chat. Believe a veteran player, this game was far more enjoyable when tribunal didn't exist, even with the few assholes here and there, that you could just mute.


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Amélie Poulain

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nasdrovia499 View Post
Not sure about what words I used specifically, but that's not what I meant. Tribunal in itself, and the idea of banning players who cross the line, is fine - in fact, any online game worth a shot bans abusive players. It's not the concept I'm criticizing, it's the method.

What I disagree with, is the fact that Riot absolutely wants to actively improve the community rather than just "keeping the bastards out". People behave the way they want, and depending on how they were raised, where they live, etc. As long as they don't become absurdly offensive, there is no reason for them to change just to play a game. Not only that, but so far I don't think it's effective. Tribunal breeds frustration, more angry people who are afraid of getting banned, more crying for reports...And of course the "tribunal abusers" who know how to be a dick without showing it explicitly in chat. Believe a veteran player, this game was far more enjoyable when tribunal didn't exist, even with the few assholes here and there, that you could just mute.
I misread. Oops.

In that case, I agree with all that you say. Great idea, poor execution. I don't think we'll be seeing changes to the Tribunal any time soon, because the people who run it have data telling them it's running just fine; any sensible player, though, will tell you time and time and again that the game is still filled with *******s, the community is still just as bad, and although it "works", the change provided by the Tribunal on a grand scale is rarely felt when playing with randoms on a day-to-day basis.


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Amélie Poulain

Senior Member

03-11-2013

bump


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Quadrakill Amumu

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nasdrovia499 View Post
If you walk around in an Arabic country with a sign written in Arabic, and people don't like it, it's probably a problem with them.
If you walk around in the US with the same sign, you can expect several people to frown upon it. You're fully aware of the political issues and that it isn't the native language, so you're probably part of the issue

The behavior is exactly the same, the context / community changes. What was acceptable before is now punishable. Is that an issue with the people who behave the same way, or the newcomers who arrive and spam punish/report ?
Yes, there is such a thing as propriety. Apparently you know how to parade the concept but you don't know what it actually means. There is a time, a place, and an audience for every standard of behavior. You may whip out your boobs, rip off your panties, and call your chubby best friend fat at a nudist beach in Miami, doing the same with a chubby stranger at a state restaurant in Tehran will get you kick out, arrested, and worse.

Quote:
Would be nice if the management actually did something. The problem here is that the customers are the one acting. And most of them are under aged or drunk.
The management essentially asks what its customers find to be unpleasant and intolerable behavior in game, then enforces those subjective standards of behavior the supermajority finds acceptable through an automated process. Gaming experiences are necessarily subjective, the company isn't going to tell its customers what behaviors they find unpleasant and unacceptable. Pendragon has repeatedly pointed to this fact. You people just refuse to listen.

If a small minority proves detrimental to the (necessarily subjective) gaming experiences of the masses, then the company will remove the small minority to protect its business of selling gaming experiences. That determination is always going to be subjective, but that makes it more relevant, not less, because gaming experiences are necessarily subjective and protecting the gaming experiences of the masses is why there is a Team PB&J at Riot in the first place.

The sooner you get that through your thick skulls, the sooner you can stop missing the point arguing what ought to be acceptable behavior. Quite frankly, though, I think you will find it easier to argue why whipping out your boobs ought to be acceptable behavior than insulting your fellow patrons anyway. In the end, though, the Tribunal is not about that. The Tribunal is about protecting the necessarily subjective gaming experiences of the masses, so either you figure out what the masses find acceptable and fall in line, or you get kicked out for being a public nuissance.

Your choice.


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Nasdrovia499

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burgleburgle View Post
I guess, Nas, our differences come down to whether or not it's okay to make fun of and belittle a teammate for being bad. You think it's ok. I think it's not okay.
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burgleburgle View Post
However, I think we can both agree on one thing: The majority of people who vote in the tribunal think it's not ok.
Correct I suppose, although it has yet to be proven. People who vote in the tribunal don't necessarily think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burgleburgle View Post
Right? That's pretty undeniably true. We can probably extrapolate (though this is a guess!) from there that the majority of players in LOL think it's not ok.

So let's agree: you are basically a member of a vocal minority (yes, minority. If you were a majority, punishes would not be as common.) of players who thinks it's okay to belittle teammates.
Nope. You're assuming that the Tribunal users represent the community accurately, or that they are a majority. I'd like to know how many players, out of the millions in this game, actually use the tribunal on a daily basis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burgleburgle View Post
Riot has decided that the best way to have a self-policing community is to basically allow the majority to regulate what is and is not offensive, while providing some basic guidelines. This is a flexible system that ensures that the game's morality is roughly what most people want it to be.

It does not appear to be what you want it to be. Which is unfortunate from your perspective, but leaves you with the options to either align your morality or get banned.
This isn't correct.
Riot has decided that it was the best way for them - because
1) it gives a feeling of morality where there really isn't;
2) it gives something to calm the people who complain about trolls/flamers ("but look, we banned X people this year, thanks to the tribunal ! it works, soon people will all be nice !"); 3) it doesn't cost them jack shit post creation, they just let people do their job (yes, THEIR job, because in any other game, game masters / admins / equivalents are the only ones entitled to ban people).

The first part is also absurd. It's basically anarchy. Whenever you take a group of human people (even more so in a popular gaming community), the majority tends to be dumb as fuck. That's why some people lead organizations, some people are elected to lead countries, some people are chosen to guide others. That's typically the best thing a group of people can do : choose someone to take decisions, because letting the majority do will fail more often than not.
For the same reason, any legal system requires skilled, knowledgeable people whose job is to know the laws and apply it smartly, case by case. What you're suggesting is to take random people in the streets (or, more accurately, random people among those who want to waste their time doing it) and make them judges and lawyers for a day, with no learning whatsoever.

There is no such thing as a "basic guideline" when we're talking about banning people - excluding them from the community. Either there are strict, clear rules, or there aren't. Riot could not even take a stance on the stupid "pick order vs calling" debate, let alone tell you what should and shouldn't be punished.


This is what LoL's Tribunal really is. The parody of a tribunal, with children (and a few monkeys) in place of jury, no advocate, "don't be a jerk" replacing every constitution, law book and legal agreement ever written, and where people can drop their vote in a box after 1 min without knowing anything about the case.

If such a system was half as viable as you make it sound to be, I have no doubt many countries would adopt it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Burgleburgle View Post
-Burgle (You could, if you were so inclined, use this post as an example of how to ignore trolling and raging and respond constructively.)
Thanks for the suggestion, but I prefer my methods. You know, the ones that also got me out of mud Elo a few years ago.


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Catonmars

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Senior Member

03-11-2013

Yea I'm sorry but you are ridiculously annoying. The game doesn't need a narrator or it would have one. Making ESSENTIAL CALLS is not bannable, talking about every little detail of every little thing that happens in a game is going to get you banned. That's what you do. Just play the game and do your job and hope other people do theirs. It'll get you a lot further than trying to constantly make calls and making snide comments when it doesn't go your way.