@Lyte / Wookiecookie: I don't understand.

1234511 ... 12
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Amélie Poulain

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Really, I need to some clarification... because I might be losing my mind.


--> http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribun.../6269437/#nogo <--


Okay, so I think there's a significant issue here.

I was warned about a month ago for the first time ever, after a year on this account.

A year. With text similar to this one.

Suddenly, this is the first time (and probably last time, though I can't say for sure if this keeps up) I've been banned.

It's a 3-day.


In every case, I see absolutely nothing that warrants a ban. In fact, I see mostly false reports from toxic players rather than real complaints.


Let's dissect this, case by case:

Case 1:

(I'm Twitch)

Quote:
Twitch [00:18:41] lee
Twitch [00:18:43] what division are you
Twitch [00:18:49] bronze right
Twitch [00:18:50] ?
Is the only questionable thing I said the entire game. Even then, it was a joke, not an attack. Immediately afterward I motivate my team:
Quote:
Twitch [00:23:59] we can win
Twitch [00:24:01] if lee builds
Twitch [00:24:01] hp
Twitch [00:24:05] and resists
Not much else was said throughout the game. I don't see what's punishable here.

Case 2:

(I'm Draven)

Quote:
Draven [00:28:17] you plats are bad
Draven [00:28:18] no offense
Draven [00:28:22] but i think that's why you got matched with me
Draven [00:28:23] :x
Once again, this appears like it's a mean thing to say (if you don't read the entire log and pre-judge), but then I go on to say:

Quote:
Draven [00:28:50] im also bad
Draven [00:28:54] which is why we're in the same game
It's reassurance that we're in the game together. It makes even more sense when you hear allied Taric's explanation of how we got matched in the same game. Allied Jarvan IV overreacts and blows up in chat, despite the lack of discussion for most of the game.

Case 3:

(I'm Lux)

Quote:
Lux [00:15:53] pls relax
Lux [00:15:54] we're doing fine
Lux [00:15:58] it's only 5 to 7
Doesn't seem toxic to me.

MEANWHILE:

Quote:
Miss Fortune [00:21:49] the ****
Miss Fortune [00:21:51] why the ****
Miss Fortune [00:21:53] is every baddie in this game
Miss Fortune [00:21:55] blaming us
Miss Fortune [00:21:58] you guys are ****ing doing stupid ****
Miss Fortune [00:22:02] yoprick you did the stupidest **** ive ever seen bot
Miss Fortune [00:22:04] you are terrible
Miss Fortune [00:22:05] dont ****ing blame
Miss Fortune [00:22:08] and the malph is ****ing bad too
Miss Fortune [00:22:09] so stfu
This looks toxic. But it isn't me. I hadn't said anything to this player.

Quote:
Lux [All] [00:26:15] can we just play pls
My response.

Quote:
Zed [All] [00:26:24] can you guys just surrender
Lux [All] [00:26:29] no
Lux [All] [00:26:30] never
Refusing to surrender is clearly offensive. And then...

Quote:
Miss Fortune [00:27:55] i was fighting
Miss Fortune [00:27:57] you're so bad
Miss Fortune [00:28:00] you don't deserve this win
Miss Fortune [00:28:02] i'm glad we're losing
Miss Fortune [00:28:05] cuz you need to stay where you belong
Miss Fortune [00:28:07] or go back to bronze
Miss Fortune [00:28:08] you are sooo bad.
[/highlight]Lux [All] [00:28:09] why do people behave this way [highlight]
I mean, really? Does anything I said in this case look anywhere near offensive? To anyone? If it does, please let me know. I need to know, so I can stop offending people.

Case 4:

(I'm Ezreal)

Quote:
Ezreal [00:01:48] gg duo
Nunu [00:01:49] dou?
Nunu [00:01:53] gg..
Cho'Gath [00:01:57] yeah not on skype tho
Cho'Gath [00:02:01] so idk what he doing
At first glance, you see "gg duo", but then you read the rest of the log and realize they're actually duo'd, and his partner is afk at this point.

Quote:
Ezreal [00:12:55] lyk
Ezreal [00:12:58] if you dont use ur exha
Ezreal [00:12:59] we lose
Ezreal [00:13:02] notice how janna used hers
Ezreal [00:13:05] and they won trade
Is this toxic, or advice? I don't know the community's stance on this.

Quote:
Ezreal [00:27:49] we can def stall this
Motivating my team.

Quote:
Ezreal [00:36:20] nunu
Ezreal [00:36:22] blood boil me
Ezreal [00:36:24] every fight
Ezreal [00:36:24] ok?
Ezreal [00:36:38] kill trist
Ezreal [00:36:40] and we win
Ezreal [00:36:42] easy
Again.

Quote:
Cho'Gath [00:40:56] so much peel for trist
Shen [All] [00:40:57] gg
Ezreal [00:41:00] no
Ezreal [00:41:00] it's

Cho'Gath [00:41:01] she just sits in the back rape us
Ezreal [00:41:05] it's vi
Ezreal [00:41:07] like

Vi [All] [00:41:07] gg
Ezreal [00:41:11] she never play vi before
End of the game, we assess what happened wrong. It initially looks like I'm mindlessly berating Vi, but then you look at Vi's score, what she's been spamming all game, and realize there's reasoning behind what I've said. (Hint: She's toxic.)

I don't see "bannable" here, either.

Case 5:

(I'm Poppy: Note this is a premade 5 game.)

Quote:
Poppy [00:00:27] lol
Poppy [00:00:46] i like our team
Poppy [00:00:49] i think we are going to lose
Right off the bat. Keep in mind, this is premade, and I say this in jest because it's a normal.

Quote:
Poppy [00:18:12] ogm
Poppy [00:21:48] y u guys wait
Poppy [00:22:08] if you dont hesitate
Poppy [00:22:08] we win
Just communicating how we should play the Poppy Dive game.

Quote:
Poppy [00:25:35] baron wasnt warded
Poppy [00:25:37] and they rushed it
Poppy [00:25:39] go figure
Poppy [00:26:20] pls no fight 4v5
Poppy [00:26:25] ok.
Poppy [00:26:35] ok x2
Poppy [00:27:07] dats gg
Poppy [00:27:08] i guess
Poppy [00:27:37] they're
Poppy [00:27:41] tanking a tower
Poppy [00:27:45] perfect time to retaliate
Poppy [00:27:47] but o k
Huge chunk of text.

Really, the rest of the log can be summarized to "guys, this is what's going on guyzzzzzzzzzzz, we need to do ____ guys pls". I know 2/4 players in this game; the other 2 being friends of them. If you look at any log of me playing with premade 5s, they're usually over Skype while I type. It'd look like I'm commenting to no one and directing nothing, as if all four members muted me. I should be able to behave more realistically toward people I know without getting penalized, but the Tribunal doesn't compensate for any status toward premades or friends-lists.



TL;DR/Summary: So tell me please: Am I one of those players that is "really toxic" and "should be perma'd" for chat like this? If that's true, then this might not be the game for me, or people are too sensitive.

If you really can't say anything that might be slightly out-of-bounds to anyone without getting banned for it, why is chat even a thing? We're playing on a team. We should be able to address everyone's performance so long as it's not "OMFG FK THIS NOOB ____ REPORT REPORT PLEASE REPORT EVERYONE REPORT GG IM AFK GG". Seriously.

If you read through all of this, thanks for your time. Appreciate it.

Does this warrant a 3-day?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MiziiziM

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

03-08-2013

You were punished. The tribunal is never wrong, therefore your punishment is justified.

Also, passive-aggressive behavior has already been confirmed to be a bannable offense.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Hackulator

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

03-08-2013

You're pretty annoying, but I probably wouldn't have punished.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Amélie Poulain

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiziiziM View Post
You were punished. The tribunal is never wrong, therefore your punishment is justified.

Also, passive-aggressive behavior has already been confirmed to be a bannable offense.
The Tribunal is mostly right. Which is why it's pretty effective, but I'm sure there's a percentage of people (albeit an incredibly tiny one) that are on the outlier of "acceptible behavior" and "toxic player", stuck in this grey area and getting punished/pardoned depending on what the community wants to see.

Not everyone is the pinnacle of grace, especially on a game such as this. I don't think it's right to pretend that most people behave like little angels; they don't. But there needs to be a better guideline in place than "Punish anyone who looks like a jerk", because I'm sure as hell that no Riot employees are saints when it comes to behavior in-and-out of the game, and it's unfair to judge normal players as if that's what they should be.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Amélie Poulain

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hackulator View Post
You're pretty annoying, but I probably wouldn't have punished.
I agree. I'm very sarcastic, but it's in my nature... I try to be helpful when I can, and nudge teammates when I have to.

I don't attack or harass anyone, yet I'm effectively being compared to players who do.

Dunno what to do. Maybe I should communicate with pings only...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Amélie Poulain

Senior Member

03-08-2013

bump


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Labcown

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amlie Poulain View Post
The Tribunal is mostly right. Which is why it's pretty effective, but I'm sure there's a percentage (albeit an incredibly tiny one) that is on the outlier of "acceptible behavior" and "toxic player", stuck in this grey area and getting punished/pardoned depending on what the community wants to see.

Not everyone is the pinnacle of grace, especially on a game such as this. I don't think it's right to pretend that most people behave like little angels; they don't. But there needs to be a better guideline in place than "Punish anyone who looks like a jerk", because I'm sure as hell that no Riot employees are saints when it comes behavior in-and-out of the game, and it's unfair to judge players as if that's what they should be.
Disclaimer: This post is wrought of my own experiences, and no I don't think ill of the Tribunal system, just that it's flawed in some way, like any other.

I agree, and I think one of Tribunal's biggest flaws is that the participants in it usually fall under one of three categories:

1) The genuinely concerned Player who wants to see League become a better place behavior wise and vote along the lines of they see is Acceptable Behavior, regardless of "popular outcome." These are the guys you want in Tribunal, and I'd love to say these are the guys running the vote most of the time, but sometimes they aren't and people like OP get stuck with #2 and/or #3 as judges.

2) The Popular Vote guy. This guy doesn't use his own moral compass to judge your cases, but looks for a loosely defined set of keywords or phrases that set off his "punish noaw" program. He means well, but sometimes the temptation to vote along the popular lines is too strong, or maybe that his own opinion of the matter is too weak or unclear and he votes based on what he thinks other people would.

3) V for Vendetta. These guys are the ones that most people who claim to have wronged verdicts complain about. These guys just had a terrible game where they had a feeder, or had someone completely ruin their game in another way, and they want to make sure behavior like this doesn't happen anymore in the game. Again, they go in with good intentions, but inflamed passions usually make these guys see red in the shades of grey and they Punish more than your average bear.

The rough part comes in when even though #1 is the most popular mindset for Tribunal, #2 and #3 exist, and all it takes is a small percentage of them and some bad luck getting them as your reviewers to get your Gray Behavior voted as red.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Amélie Poulain

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Labcown View Post
Disclaimer: This post is wrought of my own experiences, and no I don't think ill of the Tribunal system, just that it's flawed in some way, like any other.

I agree, and I think one of Tribunal's biggest flaws is that the participants in it usually fall under one of three categories:

1) The genuinely concerned Player who wants to see League become a better place behavior wise and vote along the lines of they see is Acceptable Behavior, regardless of "popular outcome." These are the guys you want in Tribunal, and I'd love to say these are the guys running the vote most of the time, but sometimes they aren't and people like OP get stuck with #2 and/or #3 as judges.

2) The Popular Vote guy. This guy doesn't use his own moral compass to judge your cases, but looks for a loosely defined set of keywords or phrases that set off his "punish noaw" program. He means well, but sometimes the temptation to vote along the popular lines is too strong, or maybe that his own opinion of the matter is too weak or unclear and he votes based on what he thinks other people would.

3) V for Vendetta. These guys are the ones that most people who claim to have wronged verdicts complain about. These guys just had a terrible game where they had a feeder, or had someone completely ruin their game in another way, and they want to make sure behavior like this doesn't happen anymore in the game. Again, they go in with good intentions, but inflamed passions usually make these guys see red in the shades of grey and they Punish more than your average bear.

The rough part comes in when even though #1 is the most popular mindset for Tribunal, #2 and #3 exist, and all it takes is a small percentage of them and some bad luck getting them as your reviewers to get your Gray Behavior voted as red.
I've noticed this too when I used the Tribunal. I'd read through cases and genuinely think about a verdict, and if I couldn't find a strong enough reason to Pardon or Punish, I would just skip.

The main issue is, at the moment, the Tribunal doesn't reward you with anything for participating, except a number akin to elo for getting cases correct. Judges shouldn't worry about what the popular consensus will be, and instead use their own moral judgement, but that's how it is.

If you got positive feedback just for using it, verdicts might be fairer. But then you have the issue of players picking random decisions just because they can... That's a problem that should be addressed.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Amélie Poulain

Senior Member

03-08-2013

I like the discussion so far, but this thread keeps getting buried.

i cry

bamp


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sysity

Senior Member

03-08-2013

I haven't been in the Tribunal after 6 long months. I recently received a warning and lost all my badges for this:

(I'm Olaf, and 3 other players are my friends, Vayne is a PuG that insults me.)
Olaf [00:00:57] smiteless leash plea
Ezreal [All] [00:02:14] wtf
Sona [00:05:32] lah
Sona [00:05:36] lag
Olaf [00:06:05] omwdan
Vayne [00:07:22] zz
Vayne [00:07:37] olaf
Vayne [00:07:41] gank men
Olaf [00:07:48] do you not see top
Sona [All] [00:10:45] LOL
Vayne [00:13:48] help bot lol
Vayne [00:13:51] jungler
Nunu [00:15:12] noob ass olaf
Olaf [00:15:20] Oh shut up Dan
Olaf [00:15:21] lo
Nunu [00:15:24] lawl
Sona [All] [00:16:27] DAT ULT
Olaf [00:20:00] Can surrender now
Vayne [00:20:01] report fk olaf ******
Olaf [00:20:24] Report Vayne losing her lane, blaming on other people
Nunu [00:20:28] ^
Vayne [00:21:58] zzz
Nunu [All] [00:22:06] really
Ezreal [All] [00:22:06] gg
Olaf [All] [00:22:06] ggwp
Vayne [All] [00:22:08] olaf ******
Nunu [All] [00:22:10] reporty my wohle team

Vayne insulted me= I lose all my badges.

I insta punish in the Tribunal now. And I have a 90% accuracy rate.
The whole "system" is a laughing joke. Riot creates Toxicity.


1234511 ... 12