How Do People Defend Singed When Stats Show Otherwise?

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KommunistKevin

Senior Member

03-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeraphicus View Post
Yeah the whole not chasing singed thing...he flings you for 300 +1 ap scaling, where you receive at least 4 ticks of .3 scaling poison...
Except he barely has any AP other than ROA because he needs tank items to even get close to someone without being gunned down


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Cards and Dice

Senior Member

03-07-2013

Let's see here.

Singed.
Win Rate: 55.7%
Popularity: 12.04%

Singed, according to LoLKing, is played by less than an eighth of the community. If he has a higher win rate than 50% it's probably because a good Singed was playing it.

Now, lets see others win a high win rate.

Taric is fotm as of right now, and has a HIGHER WINRATE. But he's getting nerfed, so that's that.

Rumble falls behind Singed in WINRATE by a mere .01%. Yet, he's played less. Even less, in fact. Should we nerf him just because of his winrate? Or is his win rate high only because all the good Rumblers play him?

MF is pretty popular, about 1/4 of the community play her. She is only fourth in winrates. MF OP, NERF NAO, by this logic.

Janna. She's underpowered, and she has a pathetic <10% popularity. But guess what? She's NUMBER 8 in winrates!

Hecarim has a high winrate, but I look forward to Jungle Enemy Hecarim because I just kill him(I play Jax).

Now, lets look at the mechanically strong champs

Jax can 1v1 a lot of tops, even Jayce and Garen despite what others say, and he wards so that he can get his double kill once he's 6. He carries hard lategame. I suppose he needs a nerf, AGAIN, right!?

Akali is a bit powerful, I actually think she's a bit too powerful, but she can be smacked off by true damage. She has a 51% win rate, and she deals TONS OF DAMAGE without Triforce. Boy, she really needs a HARD nerf, like, right, guys? So OP. It's not like you can shut her down hard when laning, right!?

Elise, Jayce, Kog'Maw, and others shred HP, I bet they're SOOOO OP.

Lux has long ranged spells and a spammable SHOOP DA WHOOP! Every. 24. Seconds. She's sooooo OP, right? That's why she has an almost even 50.83% win rate, right!?!?!? SOOOO OP!

In other words, maybe you shouldn't rely so much on win rates so much.


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COATESISHERE

Senior Member

03-07-2013

janna #8 on win rate list

clearly janna OP


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xGary

Senior Member

03-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by KommunistKevin View Post
Except he barely has any AP other than ROA because he needs tank items to even get close to someone without being gunned down
ROA + Rylais with his +65 AP/AR/MR/HP5 and his passive is all the tankiness he needs.


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xGary

Senior Member

03-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cards and Dice View Post
Let's see here.

Singed.
Win Rate: 55.7%
Popularity: 12.04%

Singed, according to LoLKing, is played by less than an eighth of the community. If he has a higher win rate than 50% it's probably because a good Singed was playing it.

Now, lets see others win a high win rate.

Taric is fotm as of right now, and has a HIGHER WINRATE. Bu hers getting nerfed, so that's that.

Rumble falls behind Singed in WINRATE by a mere .01%. Yet, he's played less. Even less, in fact. Should we nerf him just because of his winrate? Or is his win rate high only because all the good Rumblers play him?

MF is pretty popular, about 1/4 of the community play her. She is only fourth in winrates. MF OP, NERF NAO, by this logic.

Janna. She's underpowered, and she has a pathetic <10% popularity. But guess what? She's NUMBER 8 in winrates!

Hecarim has a high winrate, but I look forward to Jungle Enemy Hecarim because I just kill him(I play Jax).

Now, lets look at the mechanically strong champs

Jax can 1v1 a lot of tops, even Jayce and Garen despite what others say, and he wards so that he can get his double kill once he's 6. He carries hard lategame. I suppose he needs a nerf, AGAIN, right!?

Akali is a bit powerful, I actually think she's a bit too powerful, but she can be smacked off by true damage. She has a 51% win rate, and she deals TONS OF DAMAGE without Triforce. Boy, she really needs a HARD nerf, like, right, guys? So OP. It's not like you can shut her down hard when laning, right!?

Elise, Jayce, Kog'Maw, and others shred HP, I bet they're SOOOO OP.

In other words, maybe you shouldn't rely so much on win rates so much.
Too much Bronze I logic and too much anecdotal evidence.


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BUGZISNUMBERONE

Senior Member

03-07-2013

you have to take into consideration how easy the champion is and how often that particular champion is played
Garen for example is one of the easiest champions to play and has had a decently high win rate and a high pick rate
his win rate is going to be slightly higher because he is easier
it's pretty hard to determine what champion is OP based on statistics


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Cards and Dice

Senior Member

03-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by xGary View Post
Too much Bronze I logic and too much anecdotal evidence.
Good job, look at lolking stats based on last week's plays, don't even look at my last match, and look at my results of only 2 games POST PLACEMENT.

And don't even counter argue. Good job.


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Weedlayer

Senior Member

03-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cards and Dice View Post
Let's see here.

Singed.
Win Rate: 55.7%
Popularity: 12.04%

Singed, according to LoLKing, is played by less than an eighth of the community. If he has a higher win rate than 50% it's probably because a good Singed was playing it.

You understand that using monthly statistics, 10.58% of games is like 227,000 games? How is that not high enough to assume a win rate of almost 56% is statistically significant?

Now, lets see others win a high win rate.

Taric is fotm as of right now, and has a HIGHER WINRATE. But he's getting nerfed, so that's that.

OP champ gets nerfed, fancy that

Rumble falls behind Singed in WINRATE by a mere .01%. Yet, he's played less. Even less, in fact. Should we nerf him just because of his winrate? Or is his win rate high only because all the good Rumblers play him?

We should nerf him, over 56% win rate at 148,000 games is obscene statistically

MF is pretty popular, about 1/4 of the community play her. She is only fourth in winrates. MF OP, NERF NAO, by this logic.

Almost a third of ranked games, still 55% win rate. Most likely too strong, yes.

Janna. She's underpowered, and she has a pathetic <10% popularity. But guess what? She's NUMBER 8 in winrates!

Janna isn't top 10 for monthy, but I find it funny that you assert "She's underpowered" despite her high win rate indicating she's one of the strongest supports. "I don't know how to play her and suck with her" would be a more accurate statement.

Hecarim has a high winrate, but I look forward to Jungle Enemy Hecarim because I just kill him(I play Jax).

Anecdotal evidence from a bronze > Statistics gathered over thousands of ranked games at various elo. Sounds legit.

Now, lets look at the mechanically strong champs

Jax can 1v1 a lot of tops, even Jayce and Garen despite what others say, and he wards so that he can get his double kill once he's 6. He carries hard lategame. I suppose he needs a nerf, AGAIN, right!?

Jax is usually below 50% win rate, briefly spiking with the BotRK buff. No good jungle will ever let a jax 1v2 him and the top laner, and despite your claims, his early game is fairly weak compared to many top laners. Your main isn't getting nerfed, stop worrying.

Akali is a bit powerful, I actually think she's a bit too powerful, but she can be smacked off by true damage. She has a 51% win rate, and she deals TONS OF DAMAGE without Triforce. Boy, she really needs a HARD nerf, like, right, guys? So OP. It's not like you can shut her down hard when laning, right!?

Statistically she's not OP, she has counters aswell, and if she doesn't snowball she's fairly ineffective. Annoying for a champ to snowball that well, but not inherently OP.

Elise, Jayce, Kog'Maw, and others shred HP, I bet they're SOOOO OP.

Hard to say with elise, who is permabanned, but the others are decent to meh.

Lux has long ranged spells and a spammable SHOOP DA WHOOP! Every. 24. Seconds. She's sooooo OP, right? That's why she has an almost even 50.83% win rate, right!?!?!? SOOOO OP!

In other words, maybe you shouldn't rely so much on win rates so much.
Win rates are more true than anecdotal evidence will ever be. Period.


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Xengre

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weedlayer View Post
"Rumble is very strong, but not OP of course, because I said he isn't."

Solid logic there.

"MF is likewise not OP, because she isn't."

Can't argue with that.

"TF isn't OP, he just has less damage (no he doesn't) and a bunch of super powerful abilites like ganking top and bot until they get fed and carry the game and knowing where everyone is whenever he ults. But of course not OP, after all, a coordinated team of 5 people can do what he does, so he's balanced (except no, nobody in the game ganks better than him)."

Face it, you're one of those "Nobody is ever OP" people, when all these champions are clearly too strong. Rumble has no terrible matchups, no bad phases of the game past level 5 and dominates a huge majority of common tops. TF is nearly impossible to force out of lane and is the best roamer in the game, transitioning to lategame with strong LB burst and a 4 CD stun. MF won't lose lane unless she's against a Draven, and has a hugely influencial, long range AOE ult that can turn fights around. Along with Taric support, these are all unarguably the best at their roles in solo queue. Picking anything else is settling for second best (Jungle has some diversity, but Mummy largely outclasses most champs in solo queue).
Funny, you provide no logic yourself.

Rumble is strong but he is effectively just another standard AP mage with no noticeable strengths other then lack of major resource cost and mobility. He also excels going somewhat tanky, but there are others that do as well.

MF has a very powerful ult that can be absolutely shut down and effectively rendered non-existent in an entire game. This is especially true with all the gap closers in this game. Heck, all these gap closers can allow them to just avoid her ult. She has no real escape so when said gap closer jumps on her shes fairly screwed so she is extremely reliant on her team protecting her, proper initiation and draw of aggro/attention, and careful positioning to get a successful ult off. Despite her passive she isn't mobile in a fight at all and has no real CC. These are some problems that keep her powerful potential dmg and strong laning in check. Throw in no scaling steroids and yeah... its no wonder while she is very powerful she isn't broken or THE go to for a ranged ADC. Ever wonder why you see Graves, Cait, Vayne, Ez, Draven picked instead of her? Often for the things she doesn't offer. She doesn't heavily weigh the match in her team's favor.

Yes, his damage is quite a bit lower then most other champs. Even as AP he only has two primarily scaling skills (and due to not building much ASPD if any a technically weak auto attack bonus dmg on his E which you can effectively divide by 4 to get its real pseudo real value (which is still unreliable even in a gank since you may not get those 4 hits off and can't ALWAYS have it prepped). Heck, even if it was guaranteed to be available every gank its still quite weak.

Lets compare TF to Annie (even tho she honestly doesn't deal quite as much dmg now days as many other AP champs). Assuming abilities are level 5 to make things easy.

Twisted Fate:
260 + 120 + 155 = 535 + (AD for 'W' 46 - 106) = 581 to 641
1.45 total AP ratio

Annie:
245 + 280 + 450 (excluding E and dot from ult as well as Tibbers autos) = 975
2.15 total AP ratio (excluding her E and ratio on Tibbers)

Giving the situation in complete unrealistic favor to TF he loses dramatically. He does some dmg but it is not really comparable to Annie who is quite low on the dmg poll as well compared to many other APs. Annie's dmg is far more reliable and this is excluding chunks of her kit to give further favor to TF. Compare him to someone like Brand even for just single target dmg and TF pales looking almost entirely like he is a support champ. Factor in the large AoE dmg compared to TF's poor AoE dmg outside of Q and its no contest. TF is a PCM by comparison. This is why TF has so much utility, large range on his Q, and options on his W.

So TF can help gank top and bot all day... you mean just like any other super highly mobile AP mid? How about if they took teleport? Heck, top takes teleport sometimes and pulls of TF inspired ganks bot. Can reveal the map just like the mythical ward? Clairvoyance? Certain skills? He doesn't do something others can't he merely offeres it up as more readily accessible and consistent at a cost to his dmg. Don't forget when he teleports he can potentially be instantly squashed or stunned and avoided or out right killed at that moment without the help of his team. His gank can be visibly seen as well so it can be avoided in some cases.

Time to back up your argument with some actual logic since you chose to go there.


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The Pale Mare

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Anyone whose played Singed or has played against Singed in anything higher than Bronze knows how anti fun this character is to play against, if not blatantly overpowered.