So, about that Karma leak...

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roninsm

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
That's exactly what happend and to be fair it isn't a good thing - it's not fixing the problems she had.
It actually is. It's a super lazy way to go about it, but it does fix her problems. With a stun + a slow, you can just play her like you would any other AP carry. Every other change is just eye candy (buffing eye candy, but eye candy nonetheless).

Karma's problem was that she needed farm, but didn't have enough to offer to be worthwhile in a solo lane. Now she does. Sure, she'll work as a support now, but to be honest I don't see her getting played that way much.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by roninsm View Post
It actually is. It's a super lazy way to go about it, but it does fix her problems. With a stun + a slow, you can just play her like you would any other AP carry. Every other change is just eye candy (buffing eye candy, but eye candy nonetheless).

Karma's problem was that she needed farm, but didn't have enough to offer to be worthwhile in a solo lane. Now she does. Sure, she'll work as a support now, but to be honest I don't see her getting played that way much.
Those were her gameplay problems - her main problem as a coherently unified design was readability, which isn't fixed now, it's still a problem, like it was on Karma's previous design.


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roninsm

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Those were her gameplay problems - her main problem as a coherently unified design was readability, which isn't fixed now, it's still a problem, like it was on Karma's previous design.
Readability meaning what? That she's confusing? It's honestly not that complicated.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-18-2013

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Originally Posted by roninsm View Post
Readability meaning what? That she's confusing? It's honestly not that complicated.
Her current gameplay is misleading to her visual appearance and an extremely vague and abstract concept, let me explain:

Quote:
In her new default - the following is present in her visual design all extremely characteristic to her new theme she is obviously supposed to reflect:

-Taijitu

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Taijitu - it's basically another word for Yin and Yang - the green glowing dragons that are visually present on her new default skin represent Yin and Yang and dragons are commonly used to represent the symbol of Yin and Yang.

-Eastern-style tattoos (dragon)

-Glowing

And over-all the entire dress and the fact they show more of her skin gives a bigger indication and representation of how the character is influenced.

The weight of the spiritual stuff in the new one is the huge floating yin-yang
Everything else just helps tie Karma to it visually.

Taijitu is green and glowing? Karma is green and glowing. It shows that there is some supernatural "energy" to her, which can then be associated with "spiritual energy" due to the visual ties to the taijitu.
---

Quote:
They've incoperated the three following themes in her visual appearance:

Karma
Yin-Yang
Spiritualism

-

I hope that you are already understanding what I'm getting at - Ashe has the theme 'frost archer' so she looks like an archer with a frost bow and plays like one, Olaf's theme is 'berzerker' so he totally looks like one and thus plays like one, Brand's theme is 'fire' or 'firemage' so he looks like one and plays like one, Rengar is a hunter/predatorso he looks like one and plays like one, Z.A.C's theme is 'blob-guy' so he looks like an actual blob and plays like one.

We can safely say that especially with default skins of champions they try to capture the core essence of what the champion is supposed to reflect through visual appearance and through playstyle [/B] - it wouldn't make any sense if for example Brand looks how he looks but ends up spewing out water instead of fire, would it?

Now Karma's new default screams the following three themes: Karma, Yin-Yang and Spiritualism.

It's extremely vague, abstract and not readable if she doesn't reflect those themes at all and ends up being a character that reflects a playstyle of 'tension' and 'momentum' - something her new playstyle is about yet does not remotely match with what her new visual appearance tells her.

In fact, it's pretty darn misleading and thus harder to understand which is what you want to avoid at all costs in a game that has over 100 characters.

The entire reason the community is upset about all of this because they've basically ripped Karma apart with her new kit, she is supposed to represent yin-yang, karma and spiritualism but ends up doing something else entirely with this new rework, hence all of the reactions: 'Hurr durr this ain't Karma anymore, this could entirely be a new champion!'
Everyone not knowing how to play with Karma because nobody really got how she worked, which was mentioned to be a common issue?

She wasn't readable.

1. You couldn't see she was getting more AP the lower HP she got unless you were literally tracking and checking her stats as you bring her lower and lower. Solution: Particle effects stronk, like you see when Annie's stun is up or when Kassadin's Force Pulse is ready/charge/available for use.

With her new default, they could've made it so that she begins to glow way more and gets way more shiny as if you are charging up the energy that flows through her body the lower HP she brings - quickly relating it to 'WHAT THE BALLS, THIS CHICK GETS SCARIER AND STRONGER THE LOWER HP SHE GETS, I MEAN LOOK AT THAT GLOW!'

2. Random shield, magical fans healing, it was really muddie'ing her design readability.

--

New kit: misleading to her visual appearance and completely abstract due to it being all about 'tension' and 'momentum' - I wouldn't have to tell you what a playstyle of 'Frost Archer' would be, right? It's freakin' obvious.


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JoshuaDolce

Junior Member

03-18-2013

Love the slows and a change of w


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Trippin Rat

Senior Member

03-18-2013

This thread is reaching critical mass.


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Eight of Clubs

Junior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitoe View Post
A moment of silence in loving memory of Karma.


...

...

...

Leave us now in peace.
We are the fans in your hands.
Your Mantra goes on.

Let us not mistake,
This mage in your skin for you,
Lest we taste karma.

Forget not balance.
Forget not enlightenment.
Forget not Karma.

Forget not the fans.
I almost started crying when i heard this. There are no words more true


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roninsm

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Her current gameplay is misleading to her visual appearance and an extremely vague and abstract concept, let me explain:



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Everyone not knowing how to play with Karma because nobody really got how she worked, which was mentioned to be a common issue?

She wasn't readable.

1. You couldn't see she was getting more AP the lower HP she got unless you were literally tracking and checking her stats as you bring her lower and lower. Solution: Particle effects stronk, like you see when Annie's stun is up or when Kassadin's Force Pulse is ready/charge/available for use.

With her new default, they could've made it so that she begins to glow way more and gets way more shiny as if you are charging up the energy that flows through her body the lower HP she brings - quickly relating it to 'WHAT THE BALLS, THIS CHICK GETS SCARIER AND STRONGER THE LOWER HP SHE GETS, I MEAN LOOK AT THAT GLOW!'

2. Random shield, magical fans healing, it was really muddie'ing her design readability.

--

New kit: misleading to her visual appearance and completely abstract due to it being all about 'tension' and 'momentum' - I wouldn't have to tell you what a playstyle of 'Frost Archer' would be, right? It's freakin' obvious.
ok, I'll buy that, but to be fair, "Frost Archer" is about as generic and obvious as they come. I will agree that a glowing effect on her bonus AP would have been cool (and easy to do), but that passive was kinda sketchy to begin with.

I understand what you are getting at with the lore and skillset not really matching up well, but its not like you can't figure it out by just reading the skills, and the whole yin/yang tension thing is kind of hard to translate into a playstyle to begin with.

What concerns me more is that they took the laziest way possible of buffing her instead of exploiting the potential that was already there in her kit and tweaking it to be something unique. Now she is just a generic stun + 2 nukes AP carry.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by roninsm View Post
ok, I'll buy that, but to be fair, "Frost Archer" is about as generic and obvious as they come. I will agree that a glowing effect on her bonus AP would have been cool (and easy to do), but that passive was kinda sketchy to begin with.

I understand what you are getting at with the lore and skillset not really matching up well, but its not like you can't figure it out by just reading the skills, and the whole yin/yang tension thing is kind of hard to translate into a playstyle to begin with.
Very much correct, abstract themes tend to be harder to read!

Anyhow, I wanted to see your reaction before I'd post this, do you understand this reasoning of mine/us?

Watch Riot's 'Champion Retrospective video'


Quote:
Originally posted by Bestbilbo
Watched it? These are the three main points to create a good champion, these are Riot's own guidelines:

-Consistant Theming
-Readability
-Counterplay

-

If one of those aspects isn't good enough or isn't present it should mean they should go back to the drawing board.

Giving me the 'excuse' or argument 'Karma wasn't really that much present in her design previously either' is a valid argument when we are discussing old Karma, but it's pretty much irrelevant when talking about a rework.

The entire point of Reworks is to improve on the quality of the character, in this case Karma's main problem was readability (her fans being a weird, unreadable weapon of choice, unpractical dress, etcetera)

The designers completely have the ability to change the gears and thus the direction of the character.

I hope it's safe to say that an entire playstyle that revolves around 'Karma' is way more readable than a playstyle that revolves around 'tension and momentum' - I hope it's safe to say people would have a better feeling in an instant what to expect when facing a character that's all about 'What goes around, comes around' than a character that's about 'tension and momentum'.

This all has to do with readability and maybe old Karma wasn't so much about 'Karma' as a central theme at all, in terms of readability this could actually be acknowledged to be a flaw as changing her central theme to 'Karma' is way more readable, so if they have to change her lore along with it to make it more central over there, so be it. It's the entire point of reworks.

My point being - to clarify, it's obvious the following themes are incorperated in her design: Spiritualist, Karma, Yin-Yang. Now you say here that 'balance' aka 'yin-yang' has been the main focus previously.

Now just because 'yin-yang' has been her main focus previously doesn't mean they shouldn't change that fact because perhaps another theme that is incorperated could be way more readable and yet again, readability is paramount in a game over 100+ champions available to play.

Let me run through the three themes in terms of readability, individually taking every single theme incorperated into her design as main focus:

'This character is all about Spiritualism' - great, now that's extremely abstract, there could be thousands of things you could speculate about, it's not really readable. Similar like her new 'tension and momentum' focus, it's not readable.

'This character is all about Yin-Yang duality' - Much, much better! Why? Because it's safe to assume she's going to have opposite mechanics in her kit, I have seen a dude here in this thread that had posted his own version of Karma, a Karma rework that had this 'yin-yang' as main focus, by having a Yin and Yang form, one stance for 'aggresive' and one for 'defense' - Is it readable?

It's more readable than 'spiritualism' or 'tension and momentum' as you know/expect more about the design: the kit is going to be full of opposite mechanics.

But then, would you know what all of the spells would generally work towards to from an instant? No, because you don't know yet what mechanics will be used, in other words: You would have to know at least 3 abilities of one form to know what the second form would do - as the second form will be the opposite of mechanics of form 1.

'This character is all about 'Karma' or 'What goes around, comes around' - most readable theme out of all the themes that are currently incorperated in her design.

Why? Because right from an instant you know what all of her abillities work towards to: punishing aggresion and redirecting it, it doesn't matter exactly what the effects to working towards that goal - the most important part is that you know what the character is all about right from an instant.

Does it really matter for a new player that 3 rings of Vayne's silver bolts will proc true damage on him? Not neseccarily, the main point is that the player obviously notices that collecting three rings isn't good - similar like that the main point is that the player notices that everything that Karma is all about will be about punishing aggresion and redirecting it.
I know you were not the guy who has said the following, but I feel it's important for you to know that the 'OMG READ LORE THAT'S WHAT SHE'S ALL ABOUT' is an extremely bad point people can make.


Quote:
Read Karma's lore! There you see she's about X and Y and not about Z.

The well famous 'READ LORE NOOB' argument - voila:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bestbilbo
[I]If you are saying people should read the lore of every champion before they actually understand why things work why things work, you are giving people homework instead of creating a design everyone gets the purpose of when looking at it in an instant.

Let me include a Red quote to back me up:

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Scion is an interesting case. Absolutely, the dude needs a visual update BADLY. Grumpy Monkey has some ideas here, some very good ideas. I agree that he fits into that weird area that some older champions fall into, where the visual theme doesn't really match the look. Scion wields a giant axe, one which, by today's standards, you'd expect to be chopped in half with. But, as has been mentioned, he's more of a Mage. Same thing goes for Mordakieser, big mace dude you'd expect to be bonked on the head by, instead he casts a lot of spell and.. nabs your ghost?

Meanwhile, these days, we want to create a fantasy that people can easily buy into. Darius is a proper axe dude, he wants to chop you with said axe, and as him you want to chop people down with said axe.
Understanding why Mordekaiser is so confusing requires us to read his lore, as there it's explained he is also kind of a lich - it's Burden of Knowledge and hurts the readability of his character and thus the accesability and structural integrity of the game.

Also Sion - you expect to be chopped into pieces but ends up magically stunning you and magically shielding himself, which doesn't have anything to do with 'Undead Warrior' as his theme. What happens? He's lore dependant aka 'less readable' aka 'burden of knowledge' - this is the single line in his lore that makes up for these weird abilities in his kit:

'Sion's reanimation actually bestowed new powers on him and increased the potency of his existing abilities, making him even more of a terror to behold on the battlefield.'

The sentence doesn't make Sion more awesome or contribute to his personality or character as a whole, it's purely there to justify the fact he has some weird unreadable stuff in his kit you wouldn't expect him to have.

Hence with the Redesign we've said it's just better to make it as readable as possible and thus get rid of the entire current lore-dependance of Karma - making her readable right from an instant as all of her abilities would work towards the goal of 'karma' or 'what goes around comes around'

Like Darius and what IronStylus says himself - nobody's forcing you to read the lore of Darius in order to understand how he works, right from the get-go you get he's going to be smashing and beating people up with that axe and that's what he's all about - you know, that is what makes people 'buy into the world of League of Legends easily' - throughout readable designs.


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roninsm

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Yea, I get it, but it's just not my main concern. I barely ever read lore though.