So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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Boobania

Junior Member

03-17-2013

@morello Does this mean we'll be getting the option to refund karma? or if we already own her the old skin? If not i would actually like her refunded. Im not into the new look


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Whyumai

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobyk View Post
I think the experience of Lulu would be quite close to the new support Karma. I don't understand why people underestimate slows.... Lulu excels at slowing enemies, and she is a support. Lux's singularity EITHER slows or damages, to maximize the slowing effect you might actually miss the enemy. Karma's Soulflare delivers the damage and the slow at the same time. Lux's shield is incredibly weak, even when doubled, and there is no way for her to actively support the team. Karma's shield would probably be stronger (as it already is) and will haste as well. Sure, Lux can snare much more reliantly than Karma, but then again I think this is a matter of positioning and skill, not of whether it is delayed or instant. There are only two drawbacks to new support Karma - no stun and no sustain. Let's say that sustain is not really that essential, since half the supports dont have heals, STUN (as well as knockback) is the main reason why supports are strong in late game. No support can harass or zone late game, and heals MAY be clutch heals at best, nothing more. The real power of a support comes from hard CC. This is the only serious drawback of the new support Karma (and in fact, the old support Karma as well) that can only be overcome through skill and timing.
Yet what makes Lulu a great support is not just the slows. The slows are great early game but late game its the polymorph combined with her ultimate (that basically heals and peels at the same time).

Lux can slow and deal damage. It's hard to know how much slow karma can deal. It's also impossible to know how strong Karma's shield is. I wouldn't think it would be as strong as you seem to think it is. It could be, which would be great, but, I think it's unlikely. Lux's shield is also alot better than players give it credit for, it's just hard to get effective usage out of it.

Delayed snare is pretty useless as a peel. Seriously, try it with Leblanc some time. It's really rough to get that snare in on a champion that will probably be fairly squishy (most supports are). Without Karma's heal she probably will be squisher now.

Also I'll mention in Karma's favor is that shield are a form of sustain. Not as effective as heals but it's better than nothing.

I don't think timing will overcome her lack of Hard CC. If it was about timing than Karma wouldn't have any problems now. My guess is she'll only be useful as a support in cases where your ADC has a self peel (for when your lane gets ganked) + strong peel from Mid/Jungler/Top. If you have Zyra AP mid (as an example), it might be Ok to go Karma support with Tristana (as an example) as your team's ADC. I still think it's not a great choice, since, I do feel this is a move towards Karma being a AP mid.

I feel like Karma is still going to need farm that she won't get as a support to be effective. This is why most damage supports have more hard cc (so that after the lane phase they can still do something useful). Leona, Lulu, Zyra, Thresh (etc) when played support all have useful hard cc to bring to the table after they leave the lane phase. So that as their damage falls off they can still participate. I have concerns that support Karma will feel pretty useless past the lane phase.

That peel is so important with the number of strong gap closing junglers and tops.


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ilovesoftcookies

Junior Member

03-17-2013

I guess that karma needs that upgrade thing...


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Dobyk

Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whyumai View Post
Yet what makes Lulu a great support is not just the slows. The slows are great early game but late game its the polymorph combined with her ultimate (that basically heals and peels at the same time).

Lux can slow and deal damage. It's hard to know how much slow karma can deal. It's also impossible to know how strong Karma's shield is. I wouldn't think it would be as strong as you seem to think it is. It could be, which would be great, but, I think it's unlikely. Lux's shield is also alot better than players give it credit for, it's just hard to get effective usage out of it.

Delayed snare is pretty useless as a peel. Seriously, try it with Leblanc some time. It's really rough to get that snare in on a champion that will probably be fairly squishy (most supports are). Without Karma's heal she probably will be squisher now.

Also I'll mention in Karma's favor is that shield are a form of sustain. Not as effective as heals but it's better than nothing.

I don't think timing will overcome her lack of Hard CC. If it was about timing than Karma wouldn't have any problems now. My guess is she'll only be useful as a support in cases where your ADC has a self peel (for when your lane gets ganked) + strong peel from Mid/Jungler/Top. If you have Zyra AP mid (as an example), it might be Ok to go Karma support with Tristana (as an example) as your team's ADC. I still think it's not a great choice, since, I do feel this is a move towards Karma being a AP mid.

I feel like Karma is still going to need farm that she won't get as a support to be effective. This is why most damage supports have more hard cc (so that after the lane phase they can still do something useful). Leona, Lulu, Zyra, Thresh (etc) when played support all have useful hard cc to bring to the table after they leave the lane phase. So that as their damage falls off they can still participate. I have concerns that support Karma will feel pretty useless past the lane phase.

That peel is so important with the number of strong gap closing junglers and tops.

Yeah, I guess this makes sense. Gosh, and I was excited I would add another support to my repertoire! Well, I still think she is viable, but as you said, without a hard CC she won't contribute as much in late game. All good points.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archadion View Post
While I agree that people shouldn't have to read lore to know why a champion's abilities are what they are. However, I'm unsure what you're arguing for or against? If you're just disagreeing with Exile, then sure. But if you're saying her kit should be about karma, then I've got to disagree. Karma is just her name. Zed's ability set doesn't have anything to do with letters, and Twitch doesn't involve muscle spasms. Graves isn't a gravedigger, Yorick is, and I'm pretty sure Poppy doesn't have any flowers.
While stuff like "Zed," "Twitch," and "Graves" is added in to create flavor and set forward a first impression (if Poppy were named Ragg'Loth, Eater of Worlds, it would seem a bit out-of-place), using a term with very, very heavy spiritual connotations to it is something else entirely. You're putting this on the same platter as other things--but just as the Taijitu isn't something you throw around when you don't want to express some level of Yin-Yang duality, Karma isn't a word to be used lightly, either. Also, the epithet of champions tends to set forth what that champion will be about ("Plague Rat," "Might of Demacia," "Frost Archer"), Karma's epithet is "The Enlightened One," which doesn't give any insight into how she might play (in fact, it takes the usual job of a champion's name to imply the characteristics of the champion, such as Graves's grave and gritty demeanor, Twitch's spasticness and "twitchy trigger finger," Vayne's throwback to the "vampire hunter" archetype, etc.), so her name, then, must do the job of giving that insight.

And like I said--Karma isn't a word you throw around lightly, just like any other sort of religious symbolism. These words generally carry more weight than "tree" or "grave," because there is much more meaning behind them.

Also also, "Her name is Karma, and she is adorned with various eastern religious and cultural symbols like the Yin-Yang, jade stuff, and serpentine dragons--meaning that name was chosen for a reason--so she might have something to do with what karma does" is a more natural thought process than "Oh, she's named after a famous-albeit-globally-misconstrued concept of reflection of one's positive and negative actions? Probably has nothing to do with it, despite all the eastern symbolism she's decked out in."

To put this into perspective--a character named "Brand" that is made of fire and also burns you with it, is more of a logical step-by-step than a character named "Brand" that is made of fire but doesn't really use it in-game. Also, the Heirarchy For Understanding the Basis of Fictional Characters goes Appearance -> Epithet (if any) -> Name -> Auxiliary Background Information (if any). For Karma, that's Indian-Looking Eastern-Flavored Spiritualist With A Huge Floating Taijitu -> "The Enlightened One -> "Karma" -> Lore.

So in the end, Lore is not what you want to work off of, and in this particular situation (the context of a competitive video game with 100+ playable characters) Karma's name takes presidence over her epithet because "Enlightened One" doesn't really tell the player much about how she plays, but rather what she's like (which is usually the job of the appearance and name--take a viking named "Olaf" for example).

BestBilbo responded to the other part, so I'm not going to repeat him.


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Axium

Senior Member

03-17-2013

I'm ready for the rework to be live. I bought Karma, and still haven't even played her much.


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Ginrai Enerjak

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Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by The5lacker View Post
I never complained about her passive not functioning when enemies are present. I complained about her NOT HAVING A PASSIVE.
It seemed to me that you were suggesting that having her passive not function when enemies were not present was fine the way it was, and then comparing Karma to similar champions whose passives relate to their ults.

-Ginrai Enerjak


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BellaFrozenheart

Senior Member

03-17-2013

I just realized two things, Karma is now gonna be my third fav mid champ, alongside morg and syn.

and two: OMG Riot, I love you!! You've actually done it, you took my idea, yay! Amrita Evenleaf (I think that was her name) was an idea I had had way way long ago. q left behind a field that would slow and damage when it poped, e would be a shield, oh this is so epic... I have to admit something though and that's that her ult giving the buff is interesting and I'm glad you kept that but...well...I'm hoping for something more...something to provide that extra Mph... hm but maybe I'm asking for too much in one champion... well whatever, here's hoping you guys can answer some of my more depthy questions in the AMA you will be holding -dont be late~-


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Whyumai

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobyk View Post
Yeah, I guess this makes sense. Gosh, and I was excited I would add another support to my repertoire! Well, I still think she is viable, but as you said, without a hard CC she won't contribute as much in late game. All good points.
I think she'll be quite viable as an AP mid or AP top. I have no doubts that she'll see more play now with these changes so It's a good thing for the champion. Heimer and Poppy will be so jealous!

She'll probably be useful in certain team combinations (as I mentioned previously) but I do feel she's not going to be a great support pick.

Having said that no one would be happier to be wrong on this point than I. I'd love for Karma to be an effective support champion. I just don't see how that can be without her being toxic. That's another discussion for another day. Certainly one I'll wait to see how she is on PBE before elaborating on.

Still, I think she looks great, and I really like the look of the traditional skin. I think overall Riot is probably handling this quite well.

While I don't like the direction Karma is taking at least they are finally actively making changes to improve a champion that has been such an underdog for so long. It's a good thing, I just wish they progressed in a way that left Karma as a viable support pick (as I feel with these changes she won't be that viable as a support champion).

Still, I could be wrong.


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iiSchemin

Junior Member

03-17-2013

No new abilities?