So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTharne View Post
I think that the problem is right here.

People are putting to much "karma" into Karma, in all her lore there is no mention about the concept of karma. Even her ingame quotes don't mention this concept.

The only thing you can find, in her lore, is maybe : "By tapping into her inner resilience, she discovered that she could bring great force to bear against her foes on the battlefield.". Which you can match with her current passive : Inner Flame. And even that can be taken with different meanings, i never thought of it as a concept of karma but like the manifestation of her will to live. (Kind of like a manga/anime way when a character is about to lose/die and he summons an incredible amount of power).

People are pushing the 'karma' feeling to much into her, i never felt that it was her theme at all, it's not because her name is Karma than her theme is the concept of karma. (or else Graves's theme is to bury people and throw grave at them...or you know have Yorick's kit)
I feel people have put 'karma' too much into Karma previously, as the only things that represented Karma in her previous design was her passive Inner Flame.

Now with the rework you have to consider/live up to these three things (this is Riot's own philosophy):

-Consistant Theming
-Readability
-Counterplay

-

If one of those aspects isn't good enough or isn't present it should mean they should go back to the drawing board.

Giving me the 'excuse' or argument 'Karma wasn't really that much present in her design previously either' is a valid argument when we are discussing old Karma, but it's pretty much irrelevant when talking about a rework.

The entire point of Reworks is to improve on the quality of the character, in this case Karma's main problem was readability (her fans being a weird, unreadable weapon of choice, unpractical dress, etcetera)

The designers completely have the ability to change the gears and thus the direction of the character.

I hope it's safe to say that an entire playstyle that revolves around 'Karma' is way more readable than a playstyle that revolves around 'tension and momentum' - I hope it's safe to say people would have a better feeling in an instant what to expect when facing a character that's all about 'What goes around, comes around' than a character that's about 'tension and momentum'.

This all has to do with readability and maybe old Karma wasn't so much about 'Karma' as a central theme at all, in terms of readability this could actually be acknowledged to be a flaw as changing her central theme to 'Karma' is way more readable, so if they have to change her lore along with it to make it more central over there, so be it. It's the entire point of reworks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melancholy Exile View Post
I have to agree with this, really.

Karma's lore establishes her as a great mediator who could weather hardship and somehow find a way to bring something better out of it. She's presented as someone very centred and balanced who would willingly suffer to lighten the burden of others. There's no suggestion of karmic retribution and the implication is that her passive represents her own "inner resilience" and conviction, rather than being something to do with making the enemy pay for their misdeeds.

Her Judgement presents her as someone governed by reason, rather than retribution. While still in burning agony from Zaunite acid eating away at her flesh, she still maintains that "All we can do is remain vigilant and try to protect those we love", rather than calling for the Noxians and their allies to receive their deserved punishment. Her "Inner Flame" is her ability to channel her own suffering into strength and purpose, not some karmic backlash against her foes.
My point being - to clarify, it's obvious the following themes are incorperated in her design: Spiritualist, Karma, Yin-Yang. Now you say here that 'balance' aka 'yin-yang' has been the main focus previously.

Now just because 'yin-yang' has been her main focus previously doesn't mean they shouldn't change that fact because perhaps another theme that is incorperated could be way more readable and yet again, readability is paramount in a game over 100+ champions available to play.

Let me run through the three themes in terms of readability, individually taking every single theme incorperated into her design as main focus:

'This character is all about Spiritualism' - great, now that's extremely abstract, there could be thousands of things you could speculate about, it's not really readable. Similar like her new 'tension and momentum' focus, it's not readable.

'This character is all about Yin-Yang duality' - Much, much better! Why? Because it's safe to assume she's going to have opposite mechanics in her kit, I have seen a dude here in this thread that had posted his own version of Karma, a Karma rework that had this 'yin-yang' as main focus, by having a Yin and Yang form, one stance for 'aggresive' and one for 'defense' - Is it readable?

It's more readable than 'spiritualism' or 'tension and momentum' as you know/expect more about the design: the kit is going to be full of opposite mechanics.

But then, would you know what all of the spells would generally work towards to from an instant? No, because you don't know yet what mechanics will be used, in other words: You would have to know at least 3 abilities of one form to know what the second form would do - as the second form will be the opposite of mechanics of form 1.

'This character is all about 'Karma' or 'What goes around, comes around' - most readable theme out of all the themes that are currently incorperated in her design.

Why? Because right from an instant you know what all of her abillities work towards to: punishing aggresion and redirecting it, it doesn't matter exactly what the effects to working towards that goal - the most important part is that you know what the character is all about right from an instant.

Does it really matter for a new player that 3 rings of Vayne's silver bolts will proc true damage on him? Not neseccarily, the main point is that the player obviously notices that collecting three rings isn't good - similar like that the main point is that the player notices that everything that Karma is all about will be about punishing aggresion and redirecting it.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Meet Chaos

Member

03-17-2013

I... actually like it! It's everything karma had bundled up a little differently, PLUS a little extra! I was going to be upset if she didn't keep her shield but she did! PLUS not only does the shield do damage with mantra, It can shield nearby team mates as well! WITH a speed boost!

OO but what i don't like which i just noticed is she doesn't have an area of effect heal for the team. Ugh... You get the team shield now. I guess in a way it would be the same except you can't heal and shield someone now. I just want to try her out now and see first hand. Any word about when she is going live?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Nvision

Junior Member

03-17-2013

Karma is ruined...the spell changes completely defeat her original purpose AND her graphics were changed. She doesn't even have fans anymore...I'm so disappointed


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dobyk

Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meet Chaos View Post
I... actually like it! It's everything karma had bundled up a little differently, PLUS a little extra! I was going to be upset if she didn't keep her shield but she did! PLUS not only does the shield do damage with mantra, It can shield nearby team mates as well! WITH a speed boost!

OO but what i don't like which i just noticed is she doesn't have an area of effect heal for the team. Ugh... You get the team shield now. I guess in a way it would be the same except you can't heal and shield someone now. I just want to try her out now and see first hand. Any word about when she is going live?
They said she is going to PBE in early next week, so I assume Tuesday or Wednesday? Then they said she will have "an extended stay on PBE" so that people can test her out and give feedback. Thus, I think they will release her after Zac has been released, or maybe even after Lissandra.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobyk View Post
If you play support a lot (which I know I do) you would know that Soraka is perhaps the only support that actually "sits back and heals". The time when supports were expected to sit back and just reactively protect the adc in Season 1 is long gone. This is the excitement of BEING a support - instead of focusing on farm, your job is to ward, to zone, to harass, all of which inevitably put you in the danger zone. The trick is not to get caught by anyone's CC and to successfully initiate and counterattack. Don't forget that they have also increased Karma's autoattack range from 425 to 525 (think LeBlanc, Graves, Orianna).
Please note he is talking about the 'passiveness' of ItemsGuy's/our Redesign, he wasn't talking about Riot's Karma rework or old Karma.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dobyk

Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Please note he is talking about the 'passiveness' of ItemsGuy's/our Redesign, he wasn't talking about Riot's Karma rework or old Karma.

Oh, my apologies. Sorry.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sessamo View Post
I think that's fair when you have a new champion to work with, but the rules change when you're working with the stepmother that Karma has become. Even if they gave her an objectively perfect kit, I think there would still be a lot of disappointed fans simply because what they loved was no more.
If this is what you meant with the previous sentence that it was pretty much a lost cause already - that's no surprise.

With every change people are going to be dissapoint, whether it are a lot of people or just a few, Riot can't escape that.

What I would like you to understand is that Riot has the intention and goal to create a good champion and their own philosophy of doing that is creating a character that's thematically tied from kit to splash art to in-game visual appearance, a champion that's readable and provides plenty of counterplay as that is what makes a game dynamic and engaging.

If they have to make any decision that dissapoints a portion of the playerbase but eventually improving on one of those aspects (in this case an example would be removing her fans to improve on her readability), than so be it.

If you'd ask the question: 'Is it inevitable people will get dissapointed with a rework of any given champion?' the answer simply is 'Yes.'

If you'd ask the question: 'Could Riot have reworked Karma in a thematically tied champion from visual appearance to actual gameplay while being as readable as she can be while providing counterplay making a more consistant and high quality character regardless of some people that are no-matter-what going to be upset about it?', the answer simply is 'Yes' - sadly, it's not the case as right now there is nothing really thematic about her anymore and thus also her readability suffers because of this.

Do you understand what I'm saying? :)

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobyk View Post
Oh, my apologies. Sorry.
No problem!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melancholy Exile View Post
Lastly, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to convey with my final question:
Please note I'm not ignoring that post - ItemsGuy is actually going to respond to it so I guess we'll both have to wait for that :)

EDIT: Please do note there is a response to you at the top of this page where I respond to your 'Karma was never that much about Karma, really' post. I'd like you to read it and respond to it :)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Samstego

Member

03-17-2013

It may be just me but I loved that Karma could heal with her mantra fans. Granted I almost always used it with the mantra boost, but I still loved that people would come to me for heals, like Kayle. Still, I'm excited to see how good she is in game-play.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meet Chaos View Post
I... actually like it! It's everything karma had bundled up a little differently, PLUS a little extra! I was going to be upset if she didn't keep her shield but she did! PLUS not only does the shield do damage with mantra, It can shield nearby team mates as well! WITH a speed boost!

OO but what i don't like which i just noticed is she doesn't have an area of effect heal for the team. Ugh... You get the team shield now. I guess in a way it would be the same except you can't heal and shield someone now. I just want to try her out now and see first hand. Any word about when she is going live?
Isnt anyone else worried abt the R/E what will be reduced for it the shield hp itself to make it not OP or the dmg. Its too much for one spell. I rly cant see it giving a aoe shield of 600 and doing that in dmg while also giving MS. Its too much it will be OP and ppl will scream for nerfs.

Am i rly the only one worried abt this? At best how i can see it working is the AoE shielding will be like 20% of the original shield. And then still i think having it do dmg and give a speedboost is too strong. I rly am worried abt this now i dont see it working how its worded right now.


And it makes the other manta spells look weak as hell tbh