So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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SCTetra

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Well,

I'm a new player, but a huge Karma fan. In fact, she's my main champion... only got (2) :P

I am enjoying some of these changes. The remodel doesn't bother me since we get to keep her old skin which I prefer more. I do dislike the removal of the fans though.

As for the spells, the shield is an AMAZING idea. If it does the same nuke damage and shields allies than it is a win for sure. The Inner Flame skill, I have no idea how good it will be, but dislike the fact that we have to use Mantra to get an AoE damage ability.

As for the passive, great idea, I just don't know how losing the AP bonus is going to affect her overall.

As for the new tether. I had an idea which would be great. I know myself and others are very disappointed in the fact that Karma has lost her AoE healing ability. So, if we added an effect on to it, where you can attach it to an ally and it heals yourself and the ally for a fair amount and when you use Mantra it radiates out to heal nearby allies as well, I think that would be a suitable replacement. Maybe make it less healing on allies or less healing on allies per "x" amount of allies or health based %.

Any thoughts?


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NamKim

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Quite frankly, having a kit that encourages you to be a low health to be more effective is both counter intuitive and troll-ish.

There are a few cases where it has worked (Olaf/Tryn) but only because of how limited they are by their melee nature. A ranged caster (a squishy concept) isn't the right place for that kind of mechanic. I appreciate how much you care, but that's not a great expenditure of our design and player-education dollars.
Excuse us, but we like the trollish nature of it!!

But jokes aside, it is a shame that Karma can no longer do the "baiting" strategy. But, to be honest, such a strategy was only actually effective when used against people who don't know how Karma works. I love Karma and want more people to use her.

It will take some time for me to adjust, but I will eventually.

Xelnath, promise me that once I become a super awesome Karma player that you will play with me.


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SirLapse

Junior Member

03-17-2013

@ ItemsGuy
I am truly sorry that I just don't want to play with your style that benefits from such a passive way of fighting. Swain is supposed to be a leader as well, and yet his kit is directed to controlling the movements of opponents while managing to keep his almost malicious aura as a character. But that's another thing. Here's where the fun starts...
------------
I've separated the sections into paragraphs, and they should be considered entirely.

The passive being left alone helps trolling. I do not think that every single Karma player is going to avoid playing as such, and benefiting that just seems wrong. Yes, there are smart ways to use something, but when you have something like this, it's just very easy to abuse. In Ranked, playing like that gets you locked and killed from map awareness. You have your wards, they have theirs. Not to mention that passive players are a common thing there. The "planning" that you're talking about can be easily done in Ranked play, as coordinated teams can effectively shut you down without a problem. Normal games are practically the only safe haven for your Karma, where people are not necessarily that experienced. EDIT: I forgot to add, 45 AP bonus for being at 10% is NOT balanced. OP elements ALWAYS feel nice to whoever uses them, just go look at Darius.

The necessity for hard CC on a champ like her is needed heavily. Riot tried adding that in with a Root for W, but it's not instant enough to be convincing. I have to remind you that just picking a support that can shield or tank damage or someone that can mitigate heals can already counter the Karma you present. Off-tanks, Locket of the Solari, Soraka, etc. just shut down this Karma so badly.

That leads to the next point....which is: "What if the damage is serious enough to combat the meta?"
The simple fact of the matter is, if that shield is massively damaging to that extent from being a passive, it's not balanced (it'd have to be nerfed when against minions/monsters or it's similar to the true damage passive in the defensive mastery tree). If you need your original passive to do so, all the more encouragement to play like a maniac instead of controlled gameplay. This would also cause your partner to become passive, because if they initiate, the minions will have aggro and ultimately strike down the first second of Q instead of the enemy champ. Forcing it to only activate when you receive a champion hit is even worse, this means that the damage has to be lowered so as to not have an easy kill for your ADC. The heal HAS to be Taric level if you involve the other "reactive" skills into that, she cannot just be forced into an OP tier of supporting (we have Alistar for that, and even he has restrictions and minor damage potential).

Your W being incorporated into the passive combined with Q utterly prevents an attack entirely. Effective? I would say that it's too perfect, considering there's no aim involved with that massive damage possibility. It would be effective to say that an ADC who doesn't possess high magic resist can be bursted down just from that. Not something I'd expect from skills that are meant to support. And if the damage is scaled down, what then? It just means that it'll only serve the purpose of merely poking your enemy, like all current supports. A little extra damage here and there from the passive, something that Life-steal can and SHOULD handle for balance purposes.
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Factors such as how long Q lasts along with how many times you can activate W in between have to be considered, and if W is on an average AP scale, it'll most likely only activate once (which seems to be your intention). With that in mind, the sheer amount of damage potential from returning attacks and an active damage tool has to be within the lines of other supports, or that will just be an indirect mage. You need Mantra for your CC, something very disadvantageous in this meta. If you're going to give me the excuse that damage covers it, then you can go talk to Soraka and Sion supports. The pressure from Alistar comes from creating unexpected CC hits, there's almost no time to react to them. This would also stop your Karma, because they can hit you with a bit of CC causing you to proc it to yourself, then allowing them to assault your partner. Or, they could focus you after you think they're aiming for the ADC. They literally just have to be minorly passive, that's how predictable your kit is. And I do mean minorly, as in 0.5-1.5 seconds. Then there's Mundo, benefiting from your passives using Masochism. Fiddlesticks should be able to even ignore you entirely if the enemies have already caused you to use up W or W2. Nocturne forces you to pick who to protect without knowing who he will strike. Good Noc players can even abuse this to make you activate the shield on yourself, simple as that. I can go on and on over what junglers can toss that kit around, but hopefully you see my point that it has no real offensive potential or hard CC to be viable. You have to handle the lane possibilities before the roam/skirmish possibilities.

I swear, if you're not getting how being completely defensive (I don't care how you want to spin it, reacting to enemy attacks or planning against them is being defensive, the mastery trees are there to show what champs can be based on, and this kit is definitely not utility) is bad or inconvenient to use in this game from this wall of text, I just think you're being biased on how "effective" your redesign is instead of actually considering all the counter-play elements to it.


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TuCraiN View Post
Please listen to this man and don't change Karma. Some people LOVE Karma, why take that away from them? There are plenty of other champions to choose from, she doesnt need to be popular....
You do realise that he's talking about his own design which, beyond her passive and the general idea of her ultimate, is really very different from the Karma on the live server and draws upon her visual rework for inspiration, right?

The entire post, beyond the first two paragraphs, is discussing how Karma could be changed to be more thematically appropriate.


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Super Ninja193

Junior Member

03-17-2013

What about her current skins and the people that own them? What will you do with those?


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SirLapse

Junior Member

03-17-2013

Back to the original point, these are my major concerns with Riot's kit:

Q: Add a heal zone instead of a slow zone. Anyone who walks in it will be healed once and receive a status effect where they cannot be healed by the skill for a short period of time, which should last long enough so that the skill ends without a double heal.

W: Add a 70% slow, it's way more effective than what you're giving. Allow it to give mana returns when linked to an ally, giving both you and your ally mana over time (it'd finally give a legitimate Caitlyn support). It should return back 5-10 mana over the cost to you if you linked with an ally.

E: This is fine.

R: If it doesn't allow two charges, add that please.

Passive: I would rather incorporate a Graves passive except AP and scales with level. Dedicated fights give more AP bonus to a cap, skirmishes do not. Your passive literally persuades me to ignore it.


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Ninth Belief

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirLapse View Post
Back to the original point, these are my major concerns with Riot's kit:

Q: Add a heal zone instead of a slow zone. Anyone who walks in it will be healed once and receive a status effect where they cannot be healed by the skill for a short period of time, which should last long enough so that the skill ends without a double heal.

W: Add a 70% slow, it's way more effective than what you're giving. Allow it to give mana returns when linked to an ally, giving both you and your ally mana over time (it'd finally give a legitimate Caitlyn support). It should return back 5-10 mana over the cost to you if you linked with an ally.

E: This is fine.

R: If it doesn't allow two charges, add that please.

Passive: I would rather incorporate a Graves passive except AP and scales with level. Dedicated fights give more AP bonus to a cap, skirmishes do not. Your passive literally persuades me to ignore it.
This is ****ing beautiful and I'd love this 1000% more than her current "new" kit


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-17-2013

All i want is her to be less selfish the old Karma had three abilities that effected the allies and enemies. Now we have one ability for friendly's rest is for the enemy


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Whyumai

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirLapse View Post
Back to the original point, these are my major concerns with Riot's kit:

Q: Add a heal zone instead of a slow zone. Anyone who walks in it will be healed once and receive a status effect where they cannot be healed by the skill for a short period of time, which should last long enough so that the skill ends without a double heal.

W: Add a 70% slow, it's way more effective than what you're giving. Allow it to give mana returns when linked to an ally, giving both you and your ally mana over time (it'd finally give a legitimate Caitlyn support). It should return back 5-10 mana over the cost to you if you linked with an ally.

E: This is fine.

R: If it doesn't allow two charges, add that please.

Passive: I would rather incorporate a Graves passive except AP and scales with level. Dedicated fights give more AP bonus to a cap, skirmishes do not. Your passive literally persuades me to ignore it.
Let's see: real game scenario time.

Akali jumps on you and it's you (Caitlyn) and Karma.

Karma can do what exactly?

Moral of the story: Karma needs a peel.


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LordPickleton

Junior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Quite frankly, having a kit that encourages you to be a low health to be more effective is both counter intuitive and troll-ish.

There are a few cases where it has worked (Olaf/Tryn) but only because of how limited they are by their melee nature. A ranged caster (a squishy concept) isn't the right place for that kind of mechanic. I appreciate how much you care, but that's not a great expenditure of our design and player-education dollars.
But wouldn't you agree that her kit emphasized being stronger the weaker you get? What drew me to Karma was that she could turn a lost team fight around by suddenly sticking a shield on a dying teammate and heal a bunch of people back up so they could dish out some punishment. The new kit turns her into a generic support. Slap a Karma skin on Janna, give it Renekton's fury mechanic as an ult and I just did half of this rework.

I was cool with the graphical changes. Her using fans as weapons wasn't the reason I liked to play her. I liked to play her because she had the unique and interesting mechanics that are now going out the window. Mantra went from a mechanic that required good judgement because you had to ration it to becoming:
Laning? Mantra Q.
1v1? Mantra W.
Team fight? Mantra E.

tl;dr Whoever did this rework obviously doesn't play or like Karma and should have just made a new "support" with these mechanics.