So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-16-2013

(I apologize for the length here--it's a bit deceiving, though, as it's created by the spacing that occurs when jumping in and out of quotes! Feel free to scroll by if you aren't SirLapse.)

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Originally Posted by SirLapse View Post
@ ItemsGuy
Alrighty. It must've been my misinterpretation on the passive you were referring to, so I'm going to have to apologize for that.
No problem dude--happens to the best of us.

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Firstly, the 5 stacks. You mentioned attacks, not champion attacks. That leads to the assumption that it's full effect is active as long as there are minions.
Its full effect is active if you aggro minions and they attack you five times--if this is problematic (which may not be the case, due to minion aggro range and the fact that they aren't present everywhere all the time), then it can easily be fixed by making the stacks only work with champion damage. This would require playtesting, though, so we'll leave it as "damage" for now.

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You didn't clarify that the ability effects move to the ally and cause you to lose the mark in your redesign. You also didn't clarify that Q had to be leveled up before it can have those effects.
I think this was clarified due to the fact that the ability effects are tied to the ability (for example, you don't get the bonus %AD unless you put a point into Zed's shadow clone), and the line "Karma sends her Crest of Twin Dragons to protect an allied champion, marking them with Heavenly Crest and causing Karma's other abilities to affect that target."--"sending" here meaning "moving it from one place to another," and "causing Karma's other abilities to affect that target" meaning that the target marked by the seal, is the sole recipient of the effects of her abilities. I pointed out that the crest is present on her regardless of whether there is a point in Q, so that W and E can still be used, just not on her allies.

If there's a way I can word this better, please let me know--it'll help prevent future misunderstandings.

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As for the Q, it really just leaves great harass potential in your favor. Champs like Xin Zhao can really just demolish through this, but is he a normal champ in bot lane? No, squishy ADC are. It potentially damages them heavily (as a harass) and allows even free farm in the lane.
Considering that it's a persistent, passive effect, the numbers aren't going to be terribly high--only high enough to make a difference in duels and such. Of course, the passive retribution is going to be less powerful than a damaging ability from any other champions (due to sliding scale of power vs. accessibility--ie. why high cooldown abilities are allowed to be more powerful, like ultimates), so if a champion decides to poke your carry and they're marked with a seal, they're going to win that trade unless your ally throws in their own autoattacks and abilities.

Unless by "harass" here you mean "drawn-out duels," the passive effect of this ability isn't going to be doing anything monumental. Activating it with impeccable timing, however, will yield to more damage--the retribution damage is about 30% as powerful as a basic ability, so the clutch-active effect is about 100% as powerful as a regular ability, so that would be your "harass" in-lane.

This also creates the early-game choice of prioritizing this retribution damage, the burst damage of W, or the healing power of E--allowing your opponent to react accordingly. Is Karma maxing Q? Opt for pokes after baiting out a Q active. Is Karma maxing W? Opt for longer duels. Is Karma maxing E? Put offense to full-tilt, because now she can't really do anything to reciprocate (it's the safest option, but consequentially, doesn't allow her to bully her lane opponent--due to the principle of risk/reward).

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On W, those two "soft" CC potentially can seal a player. That's the issue, it literally seals them up.
Not quite sure what you're saying here--it's a point-blank silence and slow on half an ultimate-level cooldown.

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Combine with champs like Blitz and they're hooked back to die.
Against a Karma/Blitz combo? Not likely. If you just mean that they're both on the team, then it's the enemy's fault for being caught out of position. Keep in mind that these soft CCs are tied to a static radius around a champion marked with the Seal--it doesn't come out of left field, so if you don't want to be slowed, silenced, and then pulled, stay away from that champion. It's the same principle as Orianna's ult, without the benefit of being freely mobile and not really having any risk tied to it.

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ADC like Varus only have Flash as a tool left, and that just slams them very harshly if they can't run/use any tool to run.
If Varus is that close to an enemy champion, chances are he was screwed to begin with. Ranged champions have that range for a reason--positioning is key with any ranged carry, and the ability to punish poor positioning is nothing new and certainly not a bad thing.

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Just a silence or slow separately would be considerable.
But like you said, if both a silence and a slow is too much (and considering that it's the only bonus that Mantra gives this ability, instead of, say, more damage--this doesn't seem to be the case), I'll have to decide between one and the other. Or just change the bonus effects to something else. Who knows!

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You mentioned Cho, but he only proves my point that all silences are afflicted without extra effects to seal up the opponent in just one move. The effects would have to be very low for having both either way, it's just not effective in that state.
Except that Cho's silence does have the "extra effect" of also dealing damage. Also--saying that Cho's silence isn't effective conflicts with the realities of his effectiveness in-game. An AoE silence is nothing to thumb your nose at!

Also, I'm pretty sure that the desired effect of CC is to "seal up an opponent"--whether that's a snare, slow, knockback, knockup, silence, or what-have-you, it's meant to inhibit the enemy without directly damaging them. If a champion with CC can seal up an opponent using that CC, then wouldn't you say that it's doing its job?

Unless you mean something entirely different by "seal up," in which case, I'd appreciate it if you elaborated on it. For now, I'm taking it to mean "inhibit."

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But, I digress:
I remember reading a guide before on how to play Karma, and it wasn't centered around major support play like the others in the same archtype. This redesign however, grinds into a no longer offensive take, but a massive defensive take.
Not defensive, sir--reactive! It's a kit that's used reactively, not to flat-out mitigate enemy aggression, but to use that aggression against them. It's a balance of offense (I, Q, W) and defense (I, R-Q, E) that is used to punish enemy aggression--Yin, Yang, and Karma all in one fell swoop.

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I'd like to ask how that helps the jungler in a solo top situation, because it looks like your skill set is restricting her purely to bot lane with a partner already doing the work.
Or in a solo lane, as she is more than capable of keeping the Seal on herself. Worst-case scenario is that she'll have to max E (sacrificing her damage) if she can't keep up with her opponent.

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And you didn't talk about one of my other points, on how that setup isn't effective if she's behind.
No matter how far behind she is, she still has a spell shield/reflect, an AoE slow/silence, and a % damage mitigation--any numerical values on top of that is just icing on the cake. The difference between a Karma that's ahead and a Karma that's behind, is that the Karma that's ahead is much, much scarier--the Karma that's behind is just "useful."

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Naturally, I'm considering average AP rates this time, but I'm still coming to the same result. She has practically 0 offense
Note that her Q and W deal damage--if that isn't offense, then I'm afraid we're using different definitions. She doesn't have outright aggression--but she makes up for that with the ability to reciprocate aggression. She's not aggressive or defensive, she's reactive. I don't think there are any champions in League that currently work like this (which ultimately helps Karma stand out), so I can understand where the confusion might be coming from!

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and that doesn't play well with multiple situations such as chasing (which the old one can at least do)
I think this is where that "overpowered" slow and silence might come in? Now, she doesn't have the ability to slow an enemy for quite as long, so she is more suited for clutch flash denials once an ally gets a jump on somebody. Does it require a bit more cooperation? Sure (but this comes naturally--your ally doesn't need to know that you have a slow, to know that jumping on an enemy that's out of position is a good thing). Is it any less effective than what she's currently got? Not at all.

She also makes up for this lack of drawn-out chasing power, with all the other stuff she has under her belt now. Just 'cause she can't do something that old Karma can do doesn't mean she's bad! : P

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and turret defense.
Not really something that new Karma can do--but not something that new Karma really needs to do. She protects towers just as well as Taric and Soraka do.

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Heck, even running away from fed Graves seems impossible.
A quick (R)W (R)E should do the trick in just about any "getting chased by a dude" scenario.

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Back to the point:
If Riot's version is foreign for being overly offensive, then I can also consider yours foreign as well for being overly defensive.
Again, debunked--reactive, not defensive! She relies on enemy offense, but she then turns that into her own defense. While relaunch Karma is all about blind aggression (with some of that AoE shield goodness thrown in), redesign!Karma is all about punishing enemy aggression--you know, like karma!

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I did enjoy reading your concept, but the mixture of [actual] offense and defense was more of what I was looking for. Her current Q is extremely offensive, but the heal is the defensive take. Her current W can be treated as either. Her current E has a defensive take, but the shield damage is the offensive.
This duality is what I recognized in her live kit, and what I tried to preserve in her redesign--now only tied to enemy aggression, which in turn ties this yin-yang duality to "karma"--unity! The whole idea behind this champion, and why she's allowed to be as powerful as she sounds, is due to counterplay--she has no offense or defense without your aggression, so if you avoid jumping on people she's marked with her Seal, you've limited her effectiveness. You've outplayed Karma, and have been rewarded for it. However, a well-played Karma will find a way to capitalize on your aggression, and make you pay dearly for it while directly supporting her allies in the process.

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Just that mix is what made me like her, and I don't see Riot incorporating that into her Q or W. The E was nicely done. The passive could be better, but I'd need tests that only Riot can do to double check the ideas I have (which gives them credibility). If they could just give that balance of possible choices to make with your Mantra (which should be different), then I'd be loving this update so much.
Wait, I'm confused here--are you referring to Riot's relaunch, or my redesign? You seem to jump back and forth a bit, so I could use a bit of clarity!

Thank you for your thoughtful responses--I hope mine have been satisfactory!


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The5lacker

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whyumai View Post
Renekton.

your move.
Renekton does have a passive. It's not much of a passive, but it's still an alteration to his resource, rather than just a function of a single one of his abilities.

Karma's passive is like Shyvana's passive, only for a single one of her abilities. Given Shyvana's passive are already all just functions of abilities, so to downgrade that from 4 abilities to 1 is just...sad.


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KageTatsujin

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Member

03-16-2013

i dont understand. why not make the tether heal/damage allies/enemies in the middle of w. if shes a support the heal shudnt go only to herself... just seems like your making it more toward apc instead of support.


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Cyrran

Senior Member

03-16-2013

This whole rework looks like **** now. HATE TO SAY IT. One of the complaints about karma was about giving her hard CC to make up for the fact she lacked any. She's STILL lacking that, and they took away her ability to TEAM HEAL which is what she exceled for if you knew how to use her. That double percentage based heal was fantastic in team fights, and now she can't heal. All she can do for 'support' is speed buff slightly and shield ?This is ****


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The5lacker

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by KageTatsujin View Post
i dont understand. why not make the tether heal/damage allies/enemies in the middle of w. if shes a support the heal shudnt go only to herself... just seems like your making it more toward apc instead of support.
Because Morgana and Zyra can heal allies.


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

03-16-2013
43 of 43 Riot Posts

Quite frankly, having a kit that encourages you to be a low health to be more effective is both counter intuitive and troll-ish.

There are a few cases where it has worked (Olaf/Tryn) but only because of how limited they are by their melee nature. A ranged caster (a squishy concept) isn't the right place for that kind of mechanic. I appreciate how much you care, but that's not a great expenditure of our design and player-education dollars.


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mofoey

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Junior Member

03-16-2013

personally i loved her passive because her name is karma and people who decided to dive her for a kill suffered


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Hellioning

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Quite frankly, having a kit that encourages you to be a low health to be more effective is both counter intuitive and troll-ish.

There are a few cases where it has worked (Olaf/Tryn) but only because of how limited they are by their melee nature. A ranged caster (a squishy concept) isn't the right place for that kind of mechanic. I appreciate how much you care, but that's not a great expenditure of our design and player-education dollars.
I suppose that makes sense, but I think you underestimate how much being melee isn't a problem in a teamfight scenario, especially with Olaf's ability to ignore CC.

And anyone who built old Karma squishy is doing it wrong, honestly.


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TheEnygma

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrran View Post
This whole rework looks like **** now. HATE TO SAY IT. One of the complaints about karma was about giving her hard CC to make up for the fact she lacked any. She's STILL lacking that, and they took away her ability to TEAM HEAL which is what she exceled for if you knew how to use her. That double percentage based heal was fantastic in team fights, and now she can't heal. All she can do for 'support' is speed buff slightly and shield ?This is ****
yeah, too bad there's a shortage of supports who can do so many things differently...oh wait


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Yago Xiten

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Quite frankly, having a kit that encourages you to be a low health to be more effective is both counter intuitive and troll-ish.

There are a few cases where it has worked (Olaf/Tryn) but only because of how limited they are by their melee nature. A ranged caster (a squishy concept) isn't the right place for that kind of mechanic. I appreciate how much you care, but that's not a great expenditure of our design and player-education dollars.
I'm sorry but they aren't "limited by their melee nature' in the slightest bit.

Olaf's got CC immunity and permaslow, and Tryndamere has that spin, his slow, and his ultimate.

There seems to be a misconception about melee being some sort of massive drawback, but because of all the gapclosers and permaslow, along with significantly better base stats? Being melee is a blessing.

And Karma wasn't exactly a squishy. And there's nothing wrong with a tankier caster.