So, about that Karma leak...

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LightningAcorns

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Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Hey guys, I'm Bestbilbo and people might know me of the 'Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be Thread' - I'm also known to be working together with a guy called 'ItemsGuy'

Now this is our proposal for Karma (please give feedback!), but before I show you our version of Karma, let's analyze her as a character and her current visual appearance.




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[CENTER] They've incoperated the three following themes in her visual appearance:

Karma
Yin-Yang
Spiritualism [/CENTER]

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I hope that you are already understanding what I'm getting at - Ashe has the theme 'frost archer' so she looks like an archer with a frost bow and plays like one, Olaf's theme is 'berzerker' so he totally looks like one and thus plays like one, Brand's theme is 'fire' or 'firemage' so he looks like one and plays like one, Rengar is a hunter/predatorso he looks like one and plays like one, Z.A.C's theme is 'blob-guy' so he looks like an actual blob and plays like one.

We can safely say that especially with default skins of champions they try to capture the core essence of what the champion is supposed to reflect through visual appearance and through playstyle - it wouldn't make any sense if for example Brand looks how he looks but ends up spewing out water instead of fire, would it?

Now Karma's new default screams the following three themes: Karma, Yin-Yang and Spiritualism - it's extremely vague, abstract and not readable if she doesn't reflect those themes at all and ends up being a character that reflects a playstyle of 'tension' and 'momentum'.

In fact, it's pretty darn misleading and thus harder to understand which is what you want to avoid at all costs in a game that has over 100 characters.

The entire reason the community is upset about all of this because they've basically ripped Karma apart with her new kit, she is supposed to represent yin-yang, karma and spiritualism but ends up doing something else entirely with this new rework, hence all of the reactions: 'Hurr durr this ain't Karma anymore, this could entirely be a new champion!'

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I assume you have lots of questions and perhaps even critique about what I've just presented to you and to the rest of the people in this thread, note that the most important part is that the champion is readable and is supposed to represent all of the themes that unify Karma as a character throughout her kit as well and not just only her visual appearance.

ItemsGuy will be here and would love to explain the thought-process behind all of his decisions and reasoning behind the making of this Redesign and answer any question thrown at him.

Sincerely,

Bilbo

EDIT: Please also don't take this as me just advertizing our work - were here and I've posted this because people look at this rework as a problem so I've posted this as I feel this is an indication of a rework that does reflect what Karma is supposed to reflect..

The current Karma rework we see as a problem due to all of the reasons mentioned above and the community screams a loud resounding 'NO!' because of that - this input of ours is a possible suggestion or solution, or at least an indication of how Karma could have been while still keeping every element of what she is supposed to represent, but being improved on compared to previous Karma because with this Redesign she's actually readable as every ability works to one common and graspable goal.

PS: What do you guys think about our Redesign? The goal was to make the entire playstyle revolve around 'karma' or 'what goes around, comes around' so she's a more readable and better representation of what Karma is supposed to be like compared to her actual current rework.
This looks good in terms of sticking to Karma's old theming elements, but I think I'd need to know more about it before I give any judgment on it yay or nay. I think it has a good grasp of "karma" with her passive and Q and the whole "Harmony/Discord" thing, as well as the yin-yang opposites of E and R, but I'd just like to know: why just focus these effects on one champion instead of an entire team? If you could give me an idea of the cooldown of her Q at least then maybe I'd be able to say more because if it's too long then playing Karma might feel to clunky as you have to really decide on who you want to protect and you might end up making the wrong decision. If it's misleading, then it falls to the same problem that old Karma did where she seems to reward playing at low health but that can backfire more often than not. Speaking of which how would you say that her old passive works with this new design? I don't agree with Morello saying that it's "free stats" because there's definitely a price associated with it, but how does it avoid the problem of turning her into a baiting champion?


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gartho33

Junior Member

03-16-2013

well just to give us some options and apeal to both sides... y not do what you did to ez with this? make it an alternet play style and make one side or the other pay to get the unlock. hate to say it but let this be the normal karma and make the diehards pay like.... 500 rp to get the old karma back as they wish, both sides win and riot wins. I know they can do this cuz they have done it with ez and this would solve all problems.... man how I screw myself over....


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningAcorns View Post
This looks good in terms of sticking to Karma's old theming elements, but I think I'd need to know more about it before I give any judgment on it yay or nay. I think it has a good grasp of "karma" with her passive and Q and the whole "Harmony/Discord" thing, as well as the yin-yang opposites of E and R, but I'd just like to know: why just focus these effects on one champion instead of an entire team? If you could give me an idea of the cooldown of her Q at least then maybe I'd be able to say more because if it's too long then playing Karma might feel to clunky as you have to really decide on who you want to protect and you might end up making the wrong decision. If it's misleading, then it falls to the same problem that old Karma did where she seems to reward playing at low health but that can backfire more often than not. Speaking of which how would you say that her old passive works with this new design? I don't agree with Morello saying that it's "free stats" because there's definitely a price associated with it, but how does it avoid the problem of turning her into a baiting champion?
I feel ItemsGuy himself should answer this - I could answer it myself but I feel ItemsGuy/Ryan would do a better job in terms of being clear and explaining in more detail as he's actually the dude who has made the redesign.

Hopefully he isn't busy right now, I'll try to contact the dude.


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

03-16-2013
42 of 43 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Whooooops. Edited now XD Yeah - Karma's not gonna be granting movement speed to towers anytime soon. I'm bad at life.
*writes this down into his 'ideas for future evil' notepad...*


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Appull

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Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
*writes this down into his 'ideas for future evil' notepad...*
probably one of my favorite reds. Can I ask you what riot is doing in response to the these 400 pages of Karma responses(thats just this thread). I don't mean that like what are they doing to bring Karma back, I mean have they even talked about the feedback we've given or thought about the proposed ideas? Or are they avoiding this until the PBE feedback(Or are they just completely ignoring it). Either way I'd like yo know so I can either continue to follow this post or give up and be upset with riot. Cause so far I'm seeing this as the majority making rules that only effect the minority.


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GreetingsGoodbye

Member

03-16-2013

Hey Xelnath, since you just posted, maybe you'll read this. It's the culmination of work from a few fans who, I believe, have a good handle on Karma's theme.

The numbers obviously need serious tweaking, but I think this would have made karma fans very happy:

Passive Yin State: Karma gains 2 points of Armor every time she is hit by a champion auto attack (max 150 armor), and 1 point of Magic Resistance whenever she is hit with a spell (max 75 MR). Karma gains 250 health if either of these bonuses become maxed (max 500). These bonuses are permanent to Karma in either state. While in the Yin State, Karma is surrounded by a white aura, in the yang state, a black aura.

Passive Yang State: Karma gains 1 AP whenever she is hit by a spell (max 100), and .05% Cooldown Reduction whenever she is hit by a Champion auto attack (max 20%). If either of these bonuses become become maxed, Karma gains 15 armor penetration (max 30). These bonuses are permanent to Karma in either state. While in the Yang State, Karma is surrounded by a black aura.

(Q) Heavenly Wave Cost: 70 / 75 / 80 / 85 / 90 / 95

Yin State: Karma sends forth hidden blades from her fans, healing herself and her allies in a cone for 55 / 75 / 95 / 115 / 135 / 155. An additional 5% (+1% per 50 ability power above 25) of health the targets are missing is added to the heal. Enemies caught in the cone are knocked back in the direction the spell was cast. The closer the enemies are to Karma, the further they are knocked back.

Yang State: Karma sends forth a wave of hidden blades from her fans, dealing 70 / 110 / 150 / 190 / 230 / 270 (+0.6 per ability power) magic damage to enemy units in a cone in front of her.

(W) Spirit Bond Cost: 65 / 75 / 85 / 95 / 105 / 115

Yin State: Karma anchors a white beam to an ally. The ally and Karma gain 20 / 22 / 24 / 26 / 28 / 30 % movement speed and 30% increased armor and Magic Resistance as long as they are anchored (max 6 seconds). Allies who pass through the beam gain also gain the movement speed bonus, and 15% increased armor and magic resistance for 3 seconds.

Yang State: Karma anchors a black beam to an enemy. The anchored enemy loses 10 / 12 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 20 % movement speed, 30% decreased armor and 30% magic resistance as long as they are anchored (max 6 seconds). Enemies who pass through this beam also suffer the movement speed penalty for 3 seconds, along with having their armor and magic resistance lowered by 15% for 3 seconds.


(E) Soul Shield Cost: 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 / 110 / 120

Yin State: Karma summons a white protective shield on an ally or herself that absorbs 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 / 260 / 300 (+0.8 per ability power) damage for 5 seconds. When the shield expires, it explodes in a large radius, healing all nearby allies for 55 / 75 / 95 / 115 / 135 / 155 health (+.5 per ability power).

Yang State: Karma summons a black damaging aura on an ally or herself that deals 50 / 70 / 90 /110 / 130 / 150 (+0.5 per ability power) damage every 1.5 seconds to nearby enemies second for 4.5 seconds. When the aura expires, it explodes, dealing 100/140/220/260/300 (+0.7 per ability power) damage in a small radius to nearby enemies. The aura will not explode if the champion carrying the aura is killed before the aura expires.

(R) Equity of Will -- No Cost

Equity of Will is the replacement ult to Mantra. Like Mantra, it is available at level 1. It does not require points to level up; it does so automatically at 6, 11, and 16.

Active: Allows Karma to switch between the Yin State and the Yang State, granting her spells different abilities depending on the State used. Karma may change her state once every 6 / 4 / 2 seconds. The state change timer is unaffected by cooldown reduction.


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SirLapse

Junior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Sorry dude but you are wrong for saying that - playstyle has to do with theme and it's eventually the kit what makes the character excell at a certain role.

Ashe theme: Frost archer - she is one and her entire kit revolves around it - still she's an ADC.

Brand theme: Pyromancer or 'Fire Mage' - his entire kit works like that thematically - he's still an AP carry.

Olaf theme: Berzerker: His entire kis works like that thematically - he's still a bruiser/tank.

Also the entire 'READ LORE NOOB' argument could be considered to be burden of knowledge - as you are basically saying 'im giving you homework as you are required to read the lore before you understand/know the theme of a champion.
That wasn't why I said what I said. His/her argument is around the basis that the theme should've been fully given to pin-point accuracy on a concept that is defined and yet abstract. I would base her moves off of the spirit, not off of selfish vs. not selfish like s/he did. And if you like the champ, I think the Lore being read isn't a hard thing to do.
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For anyone who hasn't checked Bilbo's redesign, ignore this wall of text.
As for your redesign, I have one question for you. Where is the balance? All of the skills you added had passive effects that gave exponential bonuses which are relatively easy to fully abuse in not only team fights, but dedicated skirmishes. Not to mention that Mantra causes such an imbalance of major CC effects. All with a Mantra that can have lowered cooldown for her passive and CDR, along with no charge penalty.
  • [1] Your passive. You added potentially a second passive on her, and you even stated that you have it at the start of the game, along with your original passive. That'd be fine if it wasn't broken according to your skills.

    [2] Your Q. As not only being a spell shield, but a spell returner, that leads to an early game domination for skirmishes. It would have to have very low AP scaling for it not to be OP just from the normal effect of potentially a minimized Thornmail passive.

    [3] Your W. Again, it would need very low AP scaling to not be OP. It applies multiple CC effects with Mantra, and silence is supposed to be on a stand-alone for every champ that uses it. You basically added a Rylai's to the skill along with a silence.

    [4] Now your E. Also like W, it would need very low AP scaling. The 5 charges can literally mean 5 AA, and they aren't removed even if they're no longer on the champ it was placed on. With that applying on W and E, that allows for major abuse as mentioned before. The main problem is that the heal would be available even without Mantra, something that the original Karma didn't have. The ability to reduce damage further and heal all at once cannot be considered balanced unless it's on a very low AP scale.

All-in-all, your Karma redesign basically makes a late-game Karma almost unstoppable unless the AP ratios on moves are extremely small. The implied range of the second passive seems to be 850, which is pretty huge. With Mantra and being active for most of the game, the effects are too strong on those skills even if the damage potential is low. I can also note that it says "damage," not differentiating minions with champs. If it is restricted to champs, minion waves will never be stopped by Karma unless you have great attack speed.
You also have to majorly note that it would make an early game Karma very very very weak, since ratios aren't adjusted as you level the skills. Life-steal champs like Irelia and Xin Zhao seem to just laugh at the setup if it's on very low ratios, and since your setup has no escape of any kind, summoner spells have to be wasted more frequently. Whatever you create has to combat with the meta, and I don't see this being viable on an early-game standpoint, nor do I see it working out if the Karma is behind.


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BerzerkerStance

Junior Member

03-16-2013

The changes look really cool, it will be fun to play around with a pritty much brand new karma.
Altho the concept around the q seems lackluster. i liked the old fans / heal, becos you could actually carry the adc and the team, heals> shield duration.
am i to gather its kinda like herms poke?
seems like u took the beem from leblanc , the poke from herm and the shield from thresh.
cool idea, but her origional make up was more unique in my opinion. Leaving out the +ap ratio on missing health% makes me a sad panda
Owell out with the old and in with the new. cheers for the karma love x


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-16-2013

DID SOMEBODY SAY MY NAME??


Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningAcorns View Post
This looks good in terms of sticking to Karma's old theming elements, but I think I'd need to know more about it before I give any judgment on it yay or nay. I think it has a good grasp of "karma" with her passive and Q and the whole "Harmony/Discord" thing, as well as the yin-yang opposites of E and R, but I'd just like to know: why just focus these effects on one champion instead of an entire team?
The reasoning behind this is actually threefold--I wanted to create a rich decision-making matrix (so the player knows when they've "done the right thing" instead of just being rewarded for pressing a button because it was available), allow for the effects of her (R)Q, and (R)E to be more powerful (as they'd have to be watered down if they affected an entire group of allies), and create an accessible venue of counterplay.

One of the main problems I faced when trying to rework her kit in the context of her old visual design, was "how do I make a champion that punishes aggression, while still allowing for counterplay and thus making them not extremely frustrating to play against? Her visual redesign gave me an invaluable tool, though: The Crest of Twin Dragons. It turns the kit from "I'm getting punished for attacking her???? wow" to "Hey guys, don't attack the champion that has Karma's Yin-Yang on them! Try to bait her into using it on another champion, and then go after the real target!" and stuff like that.

In short, it allows for a fairly abstract and situationally unintuitive concept ("I get punished for attacking???") to be presented in a very readable, straightforward, and intuitive way. Which is typically how you want things to be in a fast-paced competitive game with over 100 playable characters! You have to be able to get a quick glance at something and understand its purpose, because sometimes, a quick glance is all you've got.

Quote:
If you could give me an idea of the cooldown of her Q at least then maybe I'd be able to say more because if it's too long then playing Karma might feel to clunky as you have to really decide on who you want to protect and you might end up making the wrong decision. If it's misleading, then it falls to the same problem that old Karma did where she seems to reward playing at low health but that can backfire more often than not.
Hmm, I'd say somewhere around 6 seconds at max rank, so it can match the pace of late-game stuff while still accounting for the possibility of 40% cooldown reduction. At rank 1, it'll probably somewhere around 8-10 seconds (depending if it decreases by 0.5 or 5 per rank)--it has to be "clutch," but still accessible!

Quote:
Speaking of which how would you say that her old passive works with this new design? I don't agree with Morello saying that it's "free stats" because there's definitely a price associated with it, but how does it avoid the problem of turning her into a baiting champion?
With Karma's old kit, she didn't really have a defined kit to utilize this Innate--the rest of her kit wasn't focused around punishing aggression, while this redesign is. It's now no longer about "baiting" (which is fairly risky to implement, as it is incredibly inconsistent across the different skill levels--and in Karma's case, can often backfire on the player), but rather about punishing enemies for trying to take you down. If you have your Seal on yourself, not only are you reciprocating with Q's damage, but you're generating valuable Harmony and Discord charges to both bring you back from the brink of death, and lay the smack-down on your foes. This is also with the Mantra bonuses in mind--a Mantra'd Q can stop a killing blow, regardless of how powerful it is, and throw it back at the attacker, while a Mantra'd W could help disengage from melee opponents and give you an opening to deal with casters (or disrupt an entire team!), and a Mantra'd E could keep Karma alive in the toughest of situations, with the damage reduction it grants over its duration, and the heal boosted by her Innate's bonus AP.

Any more questions?


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gartho33

Junior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Hey Xelnath, since you just posted, maybe you'll read this. It's the culmination of work from a few fans who, I believe, have a good handle on Karma's theme.

The numbers obviously need serious tweaking, but I think this would have made karma fans very happy:

Passive Yin State: Karma gains 2 points of Armor every time she is hit by a champion auto attack (max 150 armor), and 1 point of Magic Resistance whenever she is hit with a spell (max 75 MR). Karma gains 250 health if either of these bonuses become maxed (max 500). These bonuses are permanent to Karma in either state. While in the Yin State, Karma is surrounded by a white aura, in the yang state, a black aura.

Passive Yang State: Karma gains 1 AP whenever she is hit by a spell (max 100), and .05% Cooldown Reduction whenever she is hit by a Champion auto attack (max 20%). If either of these bonuses become become maxed, Karma gains 15 armor penetration (max 30). These bonuses are permanent to Karma in either state. While in the Yang State, Karma is surrounded by a black aura.

(Q) Heavenly Wave Cost: 70 / 75 / 80 / 85 / 90 / 95

Yin State: Karma sends forth hidden blades from her fans, healing herself and her allies in a cone for 55 / 75 / 95 / 115 / 135 / 155. An additional 5% (+1% per 50 ability power above 25) of health the targets are missing is added to the heal. Enemies caught in the cone are knocked back in the direction the spell was cast. The closer the enemies are to Karma, the further they are knocked back.

Yang State: Karma sends forth a wave of hidden blades from her fans, dealing 70 / 110 / 150 / 190 / 230 / 270 (+0.6 per ability power) magic damage to enemy units in a cone in front of her.

(W) Spirit Bond Cost: 65 / 75 / 85 / 95 / 105 / 115

Yin State: Karma anchors a white beam to an ally. The ally and Karma gain 20 / 22 / 24 / 26 / 28 / 30 % movement speed and 30% increased armor and Magic Resistance as long as they are anchored (max 6 seconds). Allies who pass through the beam gain also gain the movement speed bonus, and 15% increased armor and magic resistance for 3 seconds.

Yang State: Karma anchors a black beam to an enemy. The anchored enemy loses 10 / 12 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 20 % movement speed, 30% decreased armor and 30% magic resistance as long as they are anchored (max 6 seconds). Enemies who pass through this beam also suffer the movement speed penalty for 3 seconds, along with having their armor and magic resistance lowered by 15% for 3 seconds.


(E) Soul Shield Cost: 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 / 110 / 120

Yin State: Karma summons a white protective shield on an ally or herself that absorbs 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 / 260 / 300 (+0.8 per ability power) damage for 5 seconds. When the shield expires, it explodes in a large radius, healing all nearby allies for 55 / 75 / 95 / 115 / 135 / 155 health (+.5 per ability power).

Yang State: Karma summons a black damaging aura on an ally or herself that deals 50 / 70 / 90 /110 / 130 / 150 (+0.5 per ability power) damage every 1.5 seconds to nearby enemies second for 4.5 seconds. When the aura expires, it explodes, dealing 100/140/220/260/300 (+0.7 per ability power) damage in a small radius to nearby enemies. The aura will not explode if the champion carrying the aura is killed before the aura expires.

(R) Equity of Will -- No Cost

Equity of Will is the replacement ult to Mantra. Like Mantra, it is available at level 1. It does not require points to level up; it does so automatically at 6, 11, and 16.

Active: Allows Karma to switch between the Yin State and the Yang State, granting her spells different abilities depending on the State used. Karma may change her state once every 6 / 4 / 2 seconds. The state change timer is unaffected by cooldown reduction.
now thats a change we all could live with.
damage mode and support mode.... me likey.