So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Blade Yago View Post
Citation provided.
Ah, my apologies! I tried to maintain the gist of what you said (saying my designs are "horribly flawed" or something like that without so much as giving a reason) to bring a greater contrast to the way we both approach problems--thoughtful critique and the suppliance of possible solutions vs. "no dude this is just bad and I don't like it"--but I got a little mean in the process. I'll try to be a bit less tongue-in-cheek next time!


Quote:
You blatantly ignored the legitimate discussion of the task at hand in my post to focus upon a single sentence of that post which criticized you and your reworks. And even if I did not support my claim of your reworks being poor, there were other conversation pieces in that post that were actually significant to the topic at hand, mind you, which were ignored because of it.
If I didn't respond to anything, it's probably because you didn't back up that point. If you go back and supply evidence to support your points, I'll take a look at them. If you only want to make baseless claims, there's nothing I can do for you. I'm only going to put as much effort into this as you are.

Quote:
"are purely examples of what champions could've been if their kits had stayed true to their theming 100%"..."giving Riot the opportunity to start anew and create stronger designs with the experience they've accumulated over the years."

That's a proper quote from your redesigns.

You explicitly say that those redesigns are better than their current iterations. If you are creating better designs, then you would be the better designer. I'm fairly certain that counts as you saying you're a better designer.

The level of arrogance you exude truly astounds me.
Well, that's what happens when you compare things to concrete criteria. If you build a chair and I build a boat, when the question comes up, "which one of these things is the better boat?", I'm going to say mine. When it comes to designs that are readable, cohere with a solid theme, and don't have any of Zileas's anti-patterns (among other things), my redesigns are qualitatively better. These are things you can write down and compare right in front of you.

In other words, it's not arrogant to state the truth. I will also not say that I'm a better designer than the designers currently at Riot, because even at their worst, they have one HUGE thing over me--they've actually made these designs happen. While I may have shown that I have the capacity to fulfill their criteria consistently, I've done only that. Haven't gotten my hands dirty quite yet!

But yeah, if you can point out where my redesigns fail at being readable, thematic, coherent, free of anti-patterns, and cohesive, and where their current iterations succeed where the redesigns fail, please do so. That's how mistakes are fixed, and how designs are improved. If you're just going to sit here and address my tone (a faux pas in the context of any sort of debate) and say that problems exist while not saying what said problems are and using evidence (in this case, Riot's current design criteria and Zileas's list of anti-patterns) to support these claims, then I have no time for you. I'm a busy man, and if I had to repeat myself to every person that has opinions, I wouldn't get anything done.

Also, I can't exactly say you'll have an easy time of using Riot's own design philosophies to back up your points, because I've already used them to back up my own. This particular post illustrates this beautifully--and the best part is, I could do this for every redesign (but I won't because it takes time and is also unnecessary because Rioters are smart, which is why Riot hired them)!

Quote:
I've dealt with a handful of people like you in the past. People who think they're right because they're pretentious and even if they were to be disproved would refuse to acknowledge it. I could cite your blatant disregard for relevant conversation because you disliked my criticism. Even if I did not support that particular (and unrelated) claim, it does not make the other claims throughout false.
Oh, don't think that I'm right because I'm pretentious! I have concluded that I'm right because that's what months of research (and Rioter posts, whether direct or indirect) has told me. You, on the other hand, seem to be upset that I'd be so brash and uncouth as to *gasp* state that there might be some merit to the work I've supported with the framework Riot has masterfully crafted, that you refuse to acknowledge the possibility that I might be right! That's not a very good position to be in when all the chips (evidence, in this case) are on my side of the table. "You're bluffing! You're cheating!" Am I? : O

Also, the fact that you don't back up your claims doesn't mean they're false, it just means that you have provided no grounds on which to have any sort of meaningful debate that yields a valid conclusion! I'm not going to bet money on a horse that never showed up--that's a waste!

Quote:
I might have considered a more thorough and proper criticism of your works in the past (the only reason I didn't earlier was because, you know, I actually try to remain on the topic at hand), but considering your reactions here I can tell it'd fall on deaf ears, and I hardly feel like wasting my time with the likes of you for as long as that would require.
That's just you putting words into my mouth here--which is fine, just don't act like there's any truth in them. People have pointed out flaws in my designs (or simply areas that could be improved), pointed out why said flaws are flaws, and I fixed them right away! For example, the Ahri redesign used to have the current iteration of her ult, but somebody pointed out that if it were to be used the way I wanted it to be used (quick shifts in positioning to corner isolated enemies and get in a prime position to blow your full combo on them), it would actually punish players that play her well and can get into position without using all 3 charges--so I changed it to work on an individual charge system, which was an improvement! Is it still the best solution? Probably not, but it's another step in the right direction and that's what I live for.

Not only do you lack the promise of an identified flaw (that is identified as a flaw by pointing out the criteria and then pointing out how said flaw defies the criteria--such as redesign!Ahri's old ult presenting the anti-pattern of the Conflicted Purpose, I think), but you lack the attitude required to give any sort of thoughtful feedback whatsoever. Your posts are reeking of vitriol, and you've already made it clear that you dislike me out of principle (as you haven't given any reasons aside from "you're arrogant!" which I've already refuted as you confusing "being arrogant" with "coming to the conclusion that I'm right through careful and organized analysis"), so I'm kind of finding it hard to come to the conclusion that you'll have anything useful to say to me. So I am not necessarily tempted to pursue any thread of conversation with you!

Anyway, I've got work to finish (end-of-quarter deadlines!), but if you experience a sudden change of heart and decide to give my designs thoughtful and critical reviews, please take it to the thread I linked to earlier ("Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be?") so I don't lose track of it. Also, I've been taking art classes for three years--critique isn't really something I'm not used to! These years of experience, however, have given me the ability to discern between "actual critique" and "this guy doesn't like this" on a fairly accurate case-by-case basis. Your actions up to this point are attributes of that second group! ; P


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Someone actually pointed out to me 'I don't see how on the pictures Riot provided us that she lives up to a readable spiritualist playstyle'
That's something I've been saying myself in a lot of my posts. You say her new design was carefully tailored to be more "spiritualist" but I don't see that or any proof that it will live up to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
What do I share then exactly? That her previous theme was extremely misplaced and was weird and that her fans were deadweight on her design, her previous theme was pretty much too abstract and weird and therefore not readable, 'magical fans' that is.
Already said that, to me, her previous theme was NOT "magical fans".

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
What do I not share with them? If it eventually turns out that her new spiritualist theme is going to be extremely abstract and weird in terms of gameplay and not nessecarily working to one common goal, I'm going to have be afraid I'll keep defending ItemsGuy's Redesign because for readability's sake (yet again, Riot's own standards), the Redesign might do a better job at executing how they intend Karma to be like while not sacrificing on mechanics, counterplay or readability.
Not only do I find that redesign pretty awful and hope that whatever Riot ends up doing with her kit is better than that, but I'm also going to repeat that it's completely pointless to link it here. That redesign is not going to happen regardeless of its quality. This is not a "hey guys suggest redesign ideas for Karma" thread. We're fighting for ridiculously small tweaks like a fan reference in a recall animation, and Riot's position is still "well maybe but no, I doubt it". What makes you think that a completely different redesign like the one you're linking would ever be taken into consideration by Riot or the players on any side of the argument? It's just shameless advertising.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Nesher

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ionian StarChild View Post
I doubt she's keeping it, because based on the images provided of her visual rework, my observation is that she sort of walks like Elise (minus Elise's heels xD) now with how she is leaning forward and how her hands are positioned while running. I think they should come up with another graceful walk for her, because her previous walk suited her old aesthetic (with the dress and the fans) and it matched it perfectly. I don't think her old walk would look that great with her makeover (swaying with those pillars behind her will look awkward and uncomfortable for karma).
I figured as well, just it'd be a real shame. It really did set her aside from all the other champs. It was mesmerizing lol


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

KyliaL

Member

03-11-2013

Ok I figured it out. Karma should just have one giant fan mantle behind her.. lol


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Blade Yago View Post
I'm going to assume you meant MINORITY not majority.
Correct, true.

Quote:
At any rate, citation. Prove to me that people do not want at least a little bit of homework for the game
You are going to find this an extremely cheap example, but frankly it's one of the best ones out there.

'Meepo' from DotA. The dude has an extremely steep learning curve and is all about micro managing, if you can't properly micro managing (which takes like countless of hours of playing an RTS and then still you have to practise to get remotely good at it) you can't and will not do good with Meepo.

He has the lowest pickrate and winrate out of all DotA2 heroes.

Now I'm aware of the fact you carefully have chosen the word 'least bit of homework', implying that what you are asking is only minor.

The truth actually is, that burden of knowledge means that there is a burden, it means that there is something that makes the game unnecessarily harder. Do you honestly think people won't have homework if all champions weren't lore dependant or weren't based completely off history and in order to understand the champion you must have read into that? (not really a champion like that in current league, just a 'what if' here)

Not at all, players would still be busy actually playing and learning the game/.

That's exactly what burden of knowledge is; asking something of people that isn't necessary.

Quote:
It's not even like reading someone's lore to understand the reasoning behind something is that big of a deal.
Except when you'd have to do that for every champion in the game, which would be even worse if that were the case.

However, majority of champions aren't lore dependant so it's pretty much an easy conclusion: no need for lore dependance and it's only serving as burden of knowledge so no reason to not get rid of it.

Quote:
It's not as though you cannot play the game how it works because of something in the lore. It's hardly screwing people out of accessibility.
In our 'Are champion as awesome as they could be' I have seen countless of people stating that they've had some serious frustration and anger when learning this game because they promised themselves they wouldn't be required to literally memorize every single kit of every single champion that didn't make a whole lot of sense right from the start.

It does screw around with the accesability of people and the succes of league of legends shouldn't be the reason why people man up and continue playing, like right now people might motivate themselves with that, 'league got so popular and is such a big game, it must be good so I'll keep going!'

I've seen plenty of dudes looking at ItemsGuy's work and clock in and say 'Holy balls this wants to make me stop playing dota because like that I can enjoy a game that has extremely high depth without me having to memorize over 3285735 things for the sake of memorizing them because they don't make sense' which sadly is the case with DotA.

Memorizing stuff and 'burden of knowledge' in terms of having to read lore or dig into history is all mechanical skill - am I really outplaying someone if I can rack up more CS than they do? Am I really outplaying someone if I manage to spawn more units than they do (talking about a RTS game like Starcraft now) - not really, it means I have an edge over my opponent in terms of how you should play the game, I'm not directly involved with outsmarting my opponent.

Quote:
If they are really that bothered with why Graves has a smokescreen, or Karma has fans they will either just accept it and move on, or care to find out why. And if you can appeal to their curiosity and make them want to find out why, then congratulations, they're interested. If they're THAT disgruntled and to confused as to why, and too lazy to look it up, then why are they wasting their time on a game with 100 characters to begin with?
The difference here is that personally I am forced to find out, which is burden of knowledge.

'WHY IS THIS GUY SUCH A BAD@SS, WHY DOES THIS GUY HAVE SUCH A HUGE SHOTGUN?' Those are appropriate lore-related questions that can't really be asked out of frustration, but rather out of interest and curiousity.

Myself, I had to deal with Mordekaiser back when I was a newbie, I expected him to smash around his huge mace and crumbling the ground with it, in the end he works more like a mage and.... makes ghosts out of his slain enemies? It's not readable at all and I got how he worked after reading his tooltips a few times including his lore where I discovered he's actually some sort of lich. (I can link you to a thread where Ironstylus mentions this is a huge problem for Mordekaiser)

That wasn't a pleasant experience at all, but for Darius however, what the guy does in game made perfect sense right off the bat, did I read his lore out of curiousity? Hell yeah! But I wasn't forced into it because I stumbled onto something that didn't make sense.

Quote:
Noobfriendly does not necessarily mean good. The degree of "Burden of Knowledge" removal you're talking about simplifies the game to the level of complexity of Pong.
Wrong. (Hey, that rhymes!)

Accesability =/= depth.

Chess is a good example and so is soccer. A 4 year old can play football and a 10 year old can attempt to play chess, are they lacking depth? No, they are highly accesable yet still make an extremely cool and 'complicated' game in terms of you are being able to be extremely good at it, in terms of outplaying your opponent, and not just mechanical skill which I hate as that tends to boil down to 'haha i practised this game more than you did now I'm doing something that does not really directly involve you so roflstomp powned! Noob!)

Quote:
Popularity does not necessarily equate to high quality, either.
Agreed.

Quote:
If someone makes bad products, but they are popular, that does not make them a good product. It makes them a successful one. They are not quite equivalent. It depends upon what criteria you are looking at.
It's fun because I'm using Riot's criteria, not trying to sound arrogant or condescending here, but it's true. I wouldn't invest so much time in this thread if I 'were just defending my opinion'

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyliaL View Post
bilbo , read this. If i could put my thoughts into words this is what I would have wrote. I totally agree with this person.
Going to read this tomorrow!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Healurownbum View Post
I like the link you send, its pretty amazing. And i would reply to this in depth but reading this required more energy then i had, ill reply at a later point.

And thanks! Going to attempt to sleep again
^

Thank you buddy!

---------


Sidenote: Pretty cool that regardless of the sh*t I got from two others the dude I actually dedicated the link to appreciated it and will reply later to leave his feedback. Unnecessary stupid spam right?

You make me a sad panda bear and the sad truth about is that you probably intend to do that. Talk me down.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Sidenote: Pretty cool that regardless of the sh*t I got from two others the dude I actually dedicated the link to appreciated it and will reply later to leave his feedback. Unnecessary stupid spam right?

You make me a sad panda bear and the sad truth about is that you probably intend to do that. Talk me down.
That's pretty much what spam means. You put it somewhere completely unrelated and some people might fall for it. You're fishing for feedback for your project.

The day you or ItemsGuy or any of your supporters start working for Riot is the day I stop playing, especially if you get there by doing this.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Calling Clouds

Senior Member

03-11-2013

I don't know why you feel the need to be rude.

Clearly they put effort into it and it is pretty relevant to this thread and a lot more well thought out than the pages of people complaining about the new design.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
That's something I've been saying myself in a lot of my posts. You say her new design was carefully tailored to be more "spiritualist" but I don't see that or any proof that it will live up to that.
Her new default screams that new theme, it's indeed a matter of time before we will see if she also reflects that new theme throughout gameplay.


Quote:
Already said that, to me, her previous theme was NOT "magical fans".
Are we going to argue that Ashe's theme isn't 'Ice Archer'? Are we going to argue that Olaf's theme isn't 'Berserker'?

No, we aren't. Why? Because they are balantly obvious.

I don't really care what your interpretation of her theme was or Riot's interpretation back in the days when they originally designed her, it's a fact that it turned out to be not readable at all and way too abstracts, which is the entire reason you are pointing out that to you 'it wasn't magical fans' - it more or less proves my point.

Quote:
Not only do I find that redesign pretty awful
That's some good critique I can work with! Back up your claims, buddy. What's exactly bad about it if you take all of the aspects of what Riot claims to be a good design which is consistant theming, readability, Zileas's anti-patterns?

Quote:
And hope that whatever Riot ends up doing with her kit is better than that, but I'm also going to repeat that it's completely pointless to link it here. That redesign is not going to happen regardeless of its quality. This is not a "hey guys suggest redesign ideas for Karma" thread. We're fighting for ridiculously small tweaks like a fan reference in a recall animation, and Riot's position is still "well maybe but no, I doubt it". What makes you think that a completely different redesign like the one you're linking would ever be taken into consideration by Riot or the players on any side of the argument? It's just shameless advertising.
Someone humbly asked me if I was convinced to see this new Karma reflect her new 'Spiritualist' and had to admit I am afraid it might me the case that isn't going to happen, so I linked him to a link where she does have a central theme and reflects that throughout her playstyle, nothing more, nothing less.

Seems like you try to make me look bad at any costs, I individually ended up posting that link to someone and fortunately the dude even responded and thanked me for the link and said he found it pretty amazing, promising he'll respond later.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HexedCat View Post
I don't know why you feel the need to be rude.

Clearly they put effort into it and it is pretty relevant to this thread and a lot more well thought out than the pages of people complaining about the new design.
Thank you buddy and with that I take my leave - I've tried to reason a bit with these two but all I get back is them spitting corrosive liquid and me like a mad Kog'Maw.

It's no problem you guys are frustrated with the directions Riot is taking Karma, but don't take it personal I've tried to explain why they are doing what they are doing and how I feel that might be able to be done better once her kit is released, but for now, I'll have to actually wait for her kit to be released to draw any conclusion yet.

EDIT: Goodnight lads to all of you I had a good talk with - thank you. Probably going to chop back in here tomorrow, to everyone else; get a grip guys, please lower your tone and adress the attitude, it seriously hurts to be talking to people that make you want to crush your keyboard because they really give you the impression they're here to ruin your day. Goodnight.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
That's pretty much what spam means. You put it somewhere completely unrelated and some people might fall for it. You're fishing for feedback for your project.

The day you or ItemsGuy or any of your supporters start working for Riot is the day I stop playing, especially if you get there by doing this.
He asked me if I was convinced that Riot's Karma would reflect the spiritualist theme throughout playstyle, I wasn't going to lie to him so told him I wasn't sure and provided him a link that I do think it is possible and that he shouldn't draw to the conclusion that if Riot fails to deliver the theme through gameplay that Karma is a character that should have never been produced in the first place, hence I provided the Redesign as an example of how she can perfectly exist while having a readable and themed playstyle.

Advertizing? No, socializing and discussion a topic while two lads who I wasn't really talking to get mad because I provide and dedicate one link to a single person.