So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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Raygr

Senior Member

03-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burninate View Post
wow the only people who are down voting this are people who hate brazilians.
Nah, just downvoted cause you're obnoxious.


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DeePok

Senior Member

03-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
I've got a few stories cooked up about her experiences, but that's all non-cannon and I won't subject you to my fan fictions.
I would very much like to be subjugated to your fan fictions. Please share some or at least post a link to where we can find them.


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Severian NA

Senior Member

03-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
I'm now going to quote this post with every bump. I completely agree with pretty much everything, especially about the tone of the red posts, and that the new design/personality/direction is just confusing and contradicting in some places.

I'd rather they just admit they scrapped Karma and replaced her with something else, instead of trying to pass this off as "character development" to appease the fans, because it's just not believable. If the people at Riot thought this was believable/good/realistic character development they definitely need new designers and writers.
I also agree with a lot of what is being said in that post, but there is also a lot I disagree with. Especially the accusations that are starting to become more frequent. I is not that I don't understand. I feel really bad about Karma being scrapped like this, seemingly without even asking what we cared about, and then getting no response when I reach out to them about it. But I am not the center of gravity, it is probable that just the vintage skin shows they care way more than I could reasonably expect, and that they made the decision with the best intentions in mind. We can't all win. It sucks to have to disappoint someone no matter what you do. The worst I could do, is reward them with trashtalking and accusations. Not to mention, I depend on their kindness when if I want Karma to be saved by modifying the skin.

Those are my personal feelings. (Disclaimer. I kinda went on a rant about the whole mess in general, and my take on it about here. Don't take it like I directed it at any specific person).
I think it is futile to talk about her reworked self. There is no way Riot is going back on that. Our only hope is that they will put as much of her as possible in the vintage and sakura skin. Vintage is where they are supposed to go vintage, and a sakura skin with a knee-length kimono is not something I expect Riot will be tasteless enough to implement. The fans fit perfectly in both, and if they just add idle, walk and joke animations I am happy with the sakura skin having those if they don't want to add a skirt to vintage or something.

If we want Riot to pay attention to us, we need to clear the air. Be concise and to the point with what we want. The above request is what I feel is the most reasonable one. I feel that the best outcome is Riot listening to what a vintage skin needs to be vintage, and implementing it. In return we (naturally) accept that they have the best intentions with the rework, and put this behind us.

So my suggestion is to put what we think is wrong with Skarma's visual design behind us, and politely tell them how we feel about this rework, that they might not have fully realized that they were practically replacing our Karma, and that they see what they can do based on that feeback.

Do not give them ****! I get that you feel that way. I am having trouble accepting the way they seem to have handled this, it makes it look all kinds of bad. But, just don't make the mistake of thinking like we are reasonable people who have been pushed to far by developers who clearly don't have a braincell between them! If we can only make them see how stupid and mean they are, and listen to us, the paragons of reason who sadly have been pushed to personal attacks by their ridicilous incompetence... How DARE they do this to our perfect, most beloved Karma!!!11111 Uh, yes, if we could make them listen, then they would surely weep with gratitude, that we so kindly informed them they were beyond moronic and even graced them with a sliver of our omniscience...

If all you want is for them to listen to how they did everything wrong, are incompetent and care nothing about their fans, uh.. .good luck with that. If we don't request something reasonable and doable, in a polite and friendly way, the issue will be impossible to resolve, and Riot won't even bother. That is what I am afraid is the reason they stopped responding. I mean, there is a limit to how much **** you are willing to take. When someone takes offense at everything you do, every time, it gets harder to look at negative feedback and be patient, give it the benefit of the doubt, etc.

I see no reason to think they say that they care and really don't. If they don't care, none of this matters. If they do care, maybe enough to be injured when people just take everything like a personal insult, and rant and rave at you, then we need to show that we appreciate their efforts, respect them, and that we believe them when they say something. If Riot looks at us, and all they see is the same old irrational flaming, demands and whatnot, they will stop looking. I expect they had enough.

So we need to look realistically at what can be done. And drop everything else. What do we want? We want to keep as much of Karma as possible, no? If so, I think the vintage skin is our only hope. It seems they didn't understand what was core to Karma, in our eyes, and that the vintage skin would fall through without it. I politely request that they try to see how we feel about this, and based on that, if there are many enough to make the effort, add fans, skirt, idle animation, joke animation and walk animation. Or, maybe the sakura skin is planned to have the fans and an ankle-length kimono? Add the current aforementioned animations and I will be estatic.

Whether or not it can be done, now or in the future, I strongly feel that we at least deserve that they make an effort to understand how we feel before they make that decision, and that they talk to us about it. I'm trying to show that we are on the same side, and that all I want is to communicate something it seems like they missed, that is important for me, and to see if it can be solved, completely or partially.
I have made an effort to give them the benefit of the doubt where their response, or lack of one, has made me feel like I am beneath their notice. If this is about someone having a bad week, or automatically assuming negative irrational requests and accusations (because face it, the whining on these forums can be extreme when we (some of us >.<) reached out to them politely, then that is both understandable and forgiveable. The only thing I cannot accept, is no response at all. That is not cool.

To summarize, we really want them to understand the consequences of this rework. It seems like they didn't fully. If we are wrong, they can say so. I just want to confirm that they are listening, have seen our side of this, and hear their thoughts. Feel free to, within reason, let them know how you feel, but do not accuse or attack them for any reason. Unless you want them to decide you are not worth listening to, let alone be nice to. Many people on these forums act like mid flaming the jungler for everything that could possibly have been his mistake (and he was clearly being stupid on purpose) then acting all hurt and confused when he won't help you later. I mean, how can he be such an ass!?

I'm not saying I am the paragon of rationality and so forth and so on. It should be glaringly obvious that I am making these posts because I am fighting the feeling that Riot threw away my champion, and they don't even care. It is unfounded, it is not what they say, and assuming they are lying through their teeth won't make anyone feel any better. I see them being treated unfairly, made into the bad guy, again and again. I don't want to be one of those who show no understanding nor appreciation for their efforts and their position. A company that cares about the players first, and want to communicate with them, are subjecting themselves to a lot of **** they could have avoided by simply not caring about anything but money. Try to consider how they feel when we rant and flame them for the effort they put into trying to make us happy.

Whoa, wall of text again. I do have too much free time at work. Sorry XD


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Severian NA View Post
Wall of text
I'm sorry, but as a paying customer I'm pretty sure I can show at least a little bit of indignation when something I liked in the product is taken away, especially when I also feel like I'm being made fun of in the process, or when I'm basically told that I'm not one of the people they're trying to appeal to with this game.

I didn't use any strong offensive words here, I might have said that I think Karma's new design is bad, but I'm probably allowed to have that opinion and post it here. I don't think Riot or the champion overhaul team are just a bunch of incompetent people and of course I've never said that in this thread. As I mentioned in many other posts I actually loved what they did with many of their other reworks.

You're right that the best case scenario we should try to work towards at this point is that they rework her vintage skin and make it more similar to what we consider "Karma", but there's also another discussion going on here, with one side (Rioters and the supporters of this rework) saying that the new Karma is better and that the old design needed to be completely changed. All I'm doing is replying to them, telling them that I disagree, and more importantly WHY I disagree. It won't bring Karma back but I think understanding why we loved her original design so much (it seems clear that they had no idea before) could be an incentive to actually improve at least her vintage skin.

You're saying they didn't expect such a negative reaction and they did this hoping that everyone would like it, but if they really had such a clean conscience, why open this thread by saying "before we show you anything else, we want you to know you're getting a free skin"? If they really had everyone's interest at heart, why didn't they ask for our input?

I hope, anyway, that the real reason why they aren't replying anymore isn't that they're butthurt over our reaction, as you're implying. We're talking about a company, not a single person, and that wouldn't be very professional "company" behavior. So I hope the real reason behind their silence is just that they're trying to figure out how to handle this.


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Severian NA

Senior Member

03-09-2013

Oh, I tend to put things a bit too extremely when I want to make a point. I didn't mean to insinuate you were being terribly irrational. I think Riot should be able to take a little indignation because just like they are human, so are we. I was really refering to the post you quoted, though. They may have been trying to ease the news by holding up the classic skin, but when Morello explicitly states that they did that to be considerate, and when it is our best hope of keeping Karma, it is a really bad idea, as I see it, to call it a mere distraction. However, I may very well be too careful, and reading too much into their silence. I am basically trying to maximise the chances that they will respond, and that the response will salvage something from this. So I, personally, wouldn't focus too much on how I feel about the remake. I am probably too worried that the actual possible solution is going to get drowned, and I am probably trying too hard to be reasonable and friendly, because I too feel like they have shrugged us off, and if it ends up with no reply but what we have gotten so far, they won't be able to shrug it off with "I don't reply to negative/non-constructive/etc." like Morello pretty much answered a (not really nicely put) question as to why he was so selective when responding. I also recognize that I went off on a bit of a trip with that last post, and it kinda reflects that I am putting every effort into not being someone they can brush off as impolite, and making them take notice of the one thing I see any hope for. I feel like asking some very pointed questions, but that won't do any good. To be direct, I don't understand how they can justify ignoring us, and it sure as "#&"#% won't be my fault... It is very possible that they are thinking this through before trying to disarm the bomb XD, but I fervently don't want this to be what it feels like. The last post Morello replied to, if I remember correctly, pretty much accused him of only replying to what was convenient, and it really looks like that is what they have been doing. Just "but she is really badass!!!1111" and hoping we go away. As I said, I replied directly to a question by Morello, and I thought I was being perfectly polite, but he replied to a different answer made later on. He might have just missed my reply, but I was really starting to feel like he was taking this reaction, expected or not, very badly. So I tried to display that I didn't want to attack anyone, because if this ends with no reply from Riot, I will be forced to conclude that they really did hold up a poster remake, try to sell us their decision with fancy words, and only acknowledge the replies they favoured. I really don't want that to happen, because it will mean this ends in a lost champion, and a slap in the face from a company I put my faith in, especially regarding this remake. Maybe I took it too far. Maybe I am as much in denial about this as I was about the remake ending with me keeping enough of Karma to feel like the same champion. But I will be damned if I let my emotions get the better of me, and end up being someone who can be blamed for not being worthy of a reply. So I do suspect that I am a little upset XD Sorry.


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Bes7iA

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Senior Member

03-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by K G Morder View Post
Im curious. Will the skin just be called "traditional/classic Karma" or what? Im curious as to what you would name it.
the skin will be called karma, the rest will be called syndrelia


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Shinokami54

Junior Member

03-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Severian NA View Post
I also agree with a lot of what is being said in that post, but there is also a lot I disagree with.
I must say, I do love it when I see a wall of text replying to my own wall of text (well... kind of replying to mine in a roundabout way). I'm sure there's plenty that I didn't even think of, because I am both not omniscient nor an expert psychologist that can mind meld with everyone. I actually like when people disagree, because it means I have to think that much harder to come up with a better reason for why I think the way I do. Also, I liberally use the word "we" when I should really be using "I." Bad habit, but it's too much effort to go through and change all of them now XD.

So let me open with saying that I can't say much about the need to clear the air (it's the internet, it's never going to be fully clean ), but I can at least give my two cents and hope that it at least makes them rethink how they evolve other champions moving forwards, with the very slight hope it may have some small effect on what they're doing now as it's still being worked upon (if it wasn't, it'd be available already).

I do believe that you are correct in saying that at this juncture, little can be changed. However, I do not believe it is futile. There's a lot of little things that can easily be changed at this juncture that would help keep Karma... well, more like Karma. Switching the new default skin with her vintage skin, making the vintage skin her default skin and the other skin just a new skin, adding in her fans (again, not as her primary weapon, but just for general things), and making sure the lore isn't some weird Frank Castle (the Punisher) version of Karma are all easily done (well, the fans would require significantly more coding and testing than the other two, but shouldn't be too hard). She isn't even on the PBE yet, which means that they're still working on her, and thus it's not too late to be able to make small changes.

There does have to be some concessions made by Karma fans in general, no question about that. She will change, she will not be the same as she was. But this isn't really just some change here or there, with the same core values (which is what is expected). Everything, as far as it has been described thus far, is changing about her. There isn't really anything of Karma that remains. And that's part of the problem.

I'm not entirely certain where the line about people thinking we're paragons of reason and that they (Riot) don't have a braincell between them comes from. I'm assuming other posts in the thread, but if it's in response to mine, then I apologize if I came off that way. I am by no means an expert in this field, and I believe that much of what they do is very well done. I even feel that the vast majority of this rework is well done. It's just a lot of the finishing touches that have caused enough friction to ruin the rest of it.

It's akin to the Mass Effect 3 ending. The game up until that point was amazing. Sure it started a little slowly, but once it got going, I could not put it down. Then I got to the last 5-10 minutes, and it destroyed the game for me. I got the extended cut, but the damage had been done, and I couldn't find any enjoyment in the new endings.

So again, it's not that they did everything wrong. They did a lot right. It's just the hope that we can help them avoid making those small mistakes that make us not perceive Skarma as Karma.

In reference to not ranting and raving at them, as one Rioter mentioned in some thread somewhere, those that frequent the forum have a thick skin. This is the internet, and there's no way to not have very vocal people who have the power of anonymity. While I do not believe that people should be insulting, swearing, calling them names, etc, I also do not expect that they will be blindsided by people who do so and go "Hey now, that's just not nice. We're going to ignore you all now!" Morello even mentioned "I'd rather encourage behavior that's constructive when given the choice." (Red post 26) So although they may ignore the more incendiary posts, they will still go through and read all the posts, regardless of whether or not they respond to all of them. So why should I not write down what I believe? They may or may not read it, but if I don't write it down, then they definitely won't read it.

Again, I don't really think that a lot of the core issues with the new Karma (at least from what I've read thus far in the thread) are large problems that require extensive amounts of reworking. I don't really see anyone saying that it must be scrapped entirely and be redone yet again (well, at least not with a reason why they think so). It's just making sure that the little things that we feel make Karma who she are retained, while also moving forward and advancing her. As Ironstylus said (in Red Post 4), "We want to retain but we also want to advance. We want to advance the story, the gameplay and the look." This is absolutely correct. We just want it to actually happen. Right now, it seems as if it's all advancing with a complete lack of retaining.

The free skin is also part of this. You say they gave it to us to be considerate, but that's not really how it seems. There's a number of skins that exist, with one of them being very similar to Karma as she is now. Updated, but similar. A skin that has a significant amount of references to the Ionian crest, and keeping with her being the paragon of Ionian, and a leader for its people. She screams Ionia for anyone who actually reads lore. Now, they could easily leave this as her default skin. New players who join after the remake is live will see the new Karma with this default skin, and if they read the lore at all, they will be able to see that she is Ionian through and through. Not only is it Ionian, but it is also very practical. It works for combat, but it is also somewhat official looking. It's something one could wear to, let's just throw it out there, a political discussion with non-combatants. It's not threatening, but it's not frilly either. It's practical. This seems an excellent way to retain who Karma is (a leader on the battlefield and in the political realm), while also allowing her to advance (she's not in a dress, she's in pants/coat, ready for battle if the need arises).

However, instead of using this as her default, they created a new skin, which does not really support anything of what she is. Aside from the dragons/mantle (which really need to be made clearer), nothing about it really says "Hey there, I'm Ionian." It's not an outfit that would be worn by a pragmatic individual (which Karma has always seem to have been described), nor is it something that you'd say in an official capacity. At a dinner party? Sure. At some random event where people dress up? Sure. As a day-to-day outfit to be worn at the office and on the battlefield? Really stretching it there.

So the new skin is not a problem, not at all. It's that it's being used as her default skin. Justicar Syndra is used to show a different side of Syndra (what she could have been), but no one claims that's who she really is. So use the new skin for Karma. Show what she might have been if things were different. But use the vintage as her default, because that's the best reflection of who Karma is.

All that being said, I fully agree with you on most of what you say. The manner in which we respond to Riot is very important, and we should not vilify them. What they've accomplished throughout the years has been impressive, and they still churn out a lot of high quality work. Some of it I'm not a fan of, but that's ok. I don't expect everything they do to make me happy, but that doesn't mean I can't at least attempt to give my thoughts on things to help them brainstorm better ideas for the future (be it hours from now or years from now). If I simply accept what they're doing (and fans in general), then there isn't any feedback for them to make the game even better. I like to think that discord is integral to the future growth of anyone (be it an individual or a company), because without it, constructive criticism could not exist. If pointed questions are not asked, then no growth will occur.


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Joan Slud

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Junior Member

03-09-2013

ok let me say some word here.
i as karma player i agree with everything karma player said. Riot this is not rework.. you just create new champion and named her karma why?
unlike nidalee, ashe and soraka who get VU.. her model changed
unlike GP and janna who got model changed ... her skill changed too
unlike evelynn and twitch who got skill changed... her model changed
you just changed everything about karma completely... from lore to skill everything about old karma GONE even her weapon! why? this is the first time this kind of thing happend this is not the rework it's CHAMPION REPLACEMENT....

look, i know u r a company a company that run on money, from the leak u got the model (which i believe u done with the skill too) and splash art. i think u already done half the work or perhaps finished it. so i wont ask you to do it again because those relaunch team need money to do their jobs and i cant ask you to pay them again to change this rework thing.

first im rage about this rework thing but i just hope you know you do the right thing..
i appreciate that u make her classic skin as legacy skin and make it free for me... but see many people buy karma now for her free skin just make me sad...
i appreciate your work on how do u guys out so much effort to resurrect her..
i appreciate all of u who pay your attention to this thread and listen to us
i appreciate this changed but i just hope u know wht u r doing.. i hope


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinokami54 View Post
I must say, I do love it when I see a wall of text replying to my own wall of text (well... kind of replying to mine in a roundabout way). I'm sure there's plenty that I didn't even think of, because I am both not omniscient nor an expert psychologist that can mind meld with everyone. I actually like when people disagree, because it means I have to think that much harder to come up with a better reason for why I think the way I do. Also, I liberally use the word "we" when I should really be using "I." Bad habit, but it's too much effort to go through and change all of them now XD.

So let me open with saying that I can't say much about the need to clear the air (it's the internet, it's never going to be fully clean ), but I can at least give my two cents and hope that it at least makes them rethink how they evolve other champions moving forwards, with the very slight hope it may have some small effect on what they're doing now as it's still being worked upon (if it wasn't, it'd be available already).

I do believe that you are correct in saying that at this juncture, little can be changed. However, I do not believe it is futile. There's a lot of little things that can easily be changed at this juncture that would help keep Karma... well, more like Karma. Switching the new default skin with her vintage skin, making the vintage skin her default skin and the other skin just a new skin, adding in her fans (again, not as her primary weapon, but just for general things), and making sure the lore isn't some weird Frank Castle (the Punisher) version of Karma are all easily done (well, the fans would require significantly more coding and testing than the other two, but shouldn't be too hard). She isn't even on the PBE yet, which means that they're still working on her, and thus it's not too late to be able to make small changes.

There does have to be some concessions made by Karma fans in general, no question about that. She will change, she will not be the same as she was. But this isn't really just some change here or there, with the same core values (which is what is expected). Everything, as far as it has been described thus far, is changing about her. There isn't really anything of Karma that remains. And that's part of the problem.

I'm not entirely certain where the line about people thinking we're paragons of reason and that they (Riot) don't have a braincell between them comes from. I'm assuming other posts in the thread, but if it's in response to mine, then I apologize if I came off that way. I am by no means an expert in this field, and I believe that much of what they do is very well done. I even feel that the vast majority of this rework is well done. It's just a lot of the finishing touches that have caused enough friction to ruin the rest of it.

It's akin to the Mass Effect 3 ending. The game up until that point was amazing. Sure it started a little slowly, but once it got going, I could not put it down. Then I got to the last 5-10 minutes, and it destroyed the game for me. I got the extended cut, but the damage had been done, and I couldn't find any enjoyment in the new endings.

So again, it's not that they did everything wrong. They did a lot right. It's just the hope that we can help them avoid making those small mistakes that make us not perceive Skarma as Karma.

In reference to not ranting and raving at them, as one Rioter mentioned in some thread somewhere, those that frequent the forum have a thick skin. This is the internet, and there's no way to not have very vocal people who have the power of anonymity. While I do not believe that people should be insulting, swearing, calling them names, etc, I also do not expect that they will be blindsided by people who do so and go "Hey now, that's just not nice. We're going to ignore you all now!" Morello even mentioned "I'd rather encourage behavior that's constructive when given the choice." (Red post 26) So although they may ignore the more incendiary posts, they will still go through and read all the posts, regardless of whether or not they respond to all of them. So why should I not write down what I believe? They may or may not read it, but if I don't write it down, then they definitely won't read it.

Again, I don't really think that a lot of the core issues with the new Karma (at least from what I've read thus far in the thread) are large problems that require extensive amounts of reworking. I don't really see anyone saying that it must be scrapped entirely and be redone yet again (well, at least not with a reason why they think so). It's just making sure that the little things that we feel make Karma who she are retained, while also moving forward and advancing her. As Ironstylus said (in Red Post 4), "We want to retain but we also want to advance. We want to advance the story, the gameplay and the look." This is absolutely correct. We just want it to actually happen. Right now, it seems as if it's all advancing with a complete lack of retaining.

The free skin is also part of this. You say they gave it to us to be considerate, but that's not really how it seems. There's a number of skins that exist, with one of them being very similar to Karma as she is now. Updated, but similar. A skin that has a significant amount of references to the Ionian crest, and keeping with her being the paragon of Ionian, and a leader for its people. She screams Ionia for anyone who actually reads lore. Now, they could easily leave this as her default skin. New players who join after the remake is live will see the new Karma with this default skin, and if they read the lore at all, they will be able to see that she is Ionian through and through. Not only is it Ionian, but it is also very practical. It works for combat, but it is also somewhat official looking. It's something one could wear to, let's just throw it out there, a political discussion with non-combatants. It's not threatening, but it's not frilly either. It's practical. This seems an excellent way to retain who Karma is (a leader on the battlefield and in the political realm), while also allowing her to advance (she's not in a dress, she's in pants/coat, ready for battle if the need arises).

However, instead of using this as her default, they created a new skin, which does not really support anything of what she is. Aside from the dragons/mantle (which really need to be made clearer), nothing about it really says "Hey there, I'm Ionian." It's not an outfit that would be worn by a pragmatic individual (which Karma has always seem to have been described), nor is it something that you'd say in an official capacity. At a dinner party? Sure. At some random event where people dress up? Sure. As a day-to-day outfit to be worn at the office and on the battlefield? Really stretching it there.

So the new skin is not a problem, not at all. It's that it's being used as her default skin. Justicar Syndra is used to show a different side of Syndra (what she could have been), but no one claims that's who she really is. So use the new skin for Karma. Show what she might have been if things were different. But use the vintage as her default, because that's the best reflection of who Karma is.

All that being said, I fully agree with you on most of what you say. The manner in which we respond to Riot is very important, and we should not vilify them. What they've accomplished throughout the years has been impressive, and they still churn out a lot of high quality work. Some of it I'm not a fan of, but that's ok. I don't expect everything they do to make me happy, but that doesn't mean I can't at least attempt to give my thoughts on things to help them brainstorm better ideas for the future (be it hours from now or years from now). If I simply accept what they're doing (and fans in general), then there isn't any feedback for them to make the game even better. I like to think that discord is integral to the future growth of anyone (be it an individual or a company), because without it, constructive criticism could not exist. If pointed questions are not asked, then no growth will occur.
Again, I felt the need to quote this because I agree with every single word. (I usually avoid quoting without adding anything, but this is definitely a post I think the Rioters need to read and I want it to be as visible as possible.)


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Dark Nodoka

Senior Member

03-09-2013

I was curious about what ISNT mentioned yet (as far as I have read). What I love are small interations between champs. Such as caitlyn not killing vi with ult and she teases her. Or the ever ongoing battle between Zil and dance master Voli.

I know she has some kind of relation to irelia considering they both have a really high social status in Ionia ( I think thats what that thing over their head means)

Will she have ANY interactions at all? If not will you add it to future champs such as hiemer, sion, trundle etc.